Brevik on trial, far right still gaining members, whats goin wrong?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by niuniu, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #1
    Two experiences recently shook me a little. First was several weeks ago when a bloke I'd known for a couple of years (geeky type, codes a bit, games etc) entered into a discussion with a Zimbabwean couple that turned into a racial tirade with him proclaiming that there should be a divide between whites and blacks. He also drew attention to a website that even The name was so offensive I won't link to it or repeat it. After telling a mutual friend what had happened, the mutual friend showed me links to the guys forum sig elsewhere which proclaimed 'multiculturalism is BS'.

    Later unfriended the guy and let him know exactly what I thought of him.

    Today however I was chatting on the phone to my own mother who after talking about the Brevik case said she thought multiculturalism had failed in the UK. Her reasons appeared to be based on fear of terrorism.


    How are things in other parts of the world? Where I live is peaceful and is very little racial tension, even when I lived in London people didn't express any fear of multiculturalism.
     
  2. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    #2
    The UK is predominantly white so you aren't going to have people come out of the woodwork until your country has an influx of immigrants large enough to actually make a difference.
     
  3. niuniu thread starter macrumors 68020

    niuniu

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    A man of the people. The right sort of people.
    #3
    Around 1 in 6 Brits are non-white British and that doesn't include illegal immigrants. I'd say that's pretty diverse..
     
  4. MorphingDragon macrumors 603

    MorphingDragon

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Location:
    The World Inbetween
    #4
    New Zealand is probably as Xenophobic as the UK. Anti-Americanism is popular and it is being eaten up by the National opposition.

    I don't blame the people to be honest, National don't seem to give America much of a fight. We gave up Kim Dotcom far too easily, and we could be getting far better deals in international policies.
     
  5. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    #5
    The stats I saw peg it around 15% non white. That's concentrated in a few big cities like London also. I wouldn't really consider that diverse.
     
  6. roblin macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2007
    #6
    here in sweden there which is supposed to be one of the most tolerate countries in the world the debate has really started going the last few years after our anti-immigration party won seats in our parlament(5% of the votes, steadily rising closer to 10% in polls for the next elections) for the first time in the last election. that prompted tons of people to write on facebook that they dont like racists but otherwise life went on as usual.

    in some cities there have been some rising criminality especially in the suburbs with high numbers of immigrants, in those areas the anti immigration party is gaining tons of votes both by native swedes and frist and second generation immigrants. many people are talking about the problems and many people have anti immigration views but the rest of the people are not really comfortable to take the debate and media and politicians are not really comfortable discussion the issues either.

    if you talk with older people, younger people or working class people very very many of them have strong anti immigration views. among academia, media very very few people claim to have anti immigration view and very many of them are very strongly against racism.

    almost everyone are against the actions of Breivik. on some forums he has some support but not very much and large part of it might be trolls, the nazis are usally not very articulate so it's hard to judge. however many people feel that he had some points and that the media and goverment have been misleading about the problems associated with the immigration.

    many people enjoy following the trials, it's like a big soap opera :eek:
     
  7. NickZac macrumors 68000

    NickZac

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2010
    #7
    Does anyone else think that it seems the views of multiculturalism are at least somewhat influenced by the economic climate?
     
  8. Sedulous macrumors 68020

    Sedulous

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2002
    #8
    Personally I like and dislike "multiculturalism". I like that it teaches people to be tolerant and accepting. On the other hand, I think multiculturalism erodes national identity and culture when there is too much immigration... particularly when immigrants are relocating without the desire to become part of the host country. I don't think it acceptable for me to move to Australia and demand that they fix the toilets to make the water swirl down the drain in the "correct, American way".

    No matter what, slaughtering innocent people is unforgivable. Brevik may genuinely believe he was at war but clearly was fighting the wrong fight. In the end his actions may have done more harm to his "cause" than anything.
     
  9. KingYaba macrumors 68040

    KingYaba

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Location:
    Up the irons
    #9
    Probably. People are unemployed or underemployed and look at non-citizens or new citizens as part of the employment problem. It's just a guess...
     
  10. chrono1081 macrumors 604

    chrono1081

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2008
    Location:
    Isla Nublar
    #10
    Aw that sucks :( I thought New Zealand was one of the few places that didn't hate Americans :(

    That being said I can't blame them. I was horrified when I saw how Americans acted in Dubai when we had to go through there on our way to our worksites at my last job. No respect for local culture or rules. It was shameful.
     
  11. eric/ Guest

    eric/

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2011
    Location:
    Ohio, United States
    #11
    That's the way it is for all people, everywhere.
     
  12. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    #12
    All cultures must be tolerated except American ones.
     
  13. B777Forevar macrumors 6502a

    B777Forevar

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    #13
    Wouldn't assimilation be better than multiculturalism?

    My parents and grandparents assimilated into the "American" culture when they moved over here to the U.S but they still maintain and respect our cultural distinction.
     
  14. firestarter macrumors 603

    firestarter

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Location:
    Green and pleasant land
    #14
    Multiculturalism is just one way of addressing a diverse set of peoples living in the same country.

    While some racist people will no doubt be against multiculturalism, to be anti is not to be racist. Indeed, Trevor Phillips the (black) former head of the UK Commision for Racial equality is anti-multiculturalism (and he probably isn't racist!)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_Phillips#Multiculturalism:_disagreements_with_Ken_Livingstone

    Multiculturalism does have problems. It champions 'separateness' instead of 'togetherness'. Personally I believe it's more a cause of racial tension than a solution.
     
  15. eric/ Guest

    eric/

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2011
    Location:
    Ohio, United States
    #15
    I agree. The idea that one race is somehow better, worse, or different is fundamentally what is wrong with multiculturalism. The premise of multiculturalism itself is faulty.
     
  16. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    #16
    I think this is largely an unsubstantiated fear locals have.

    Assimilation tends to happen regardless of how hard immigrants try to "hold on" to their past culture. Kids act like their peers, and they pull their parents towards the broader culture.

    Now, I will admit that as a nonwhite American, I am disappointed by a different kind of problem that seems to have cropped up in some communities, and that's the racism of isolation. Especially at the UC schools, students tend to clump together with their racial peers and even form race-specific student groups (I kid you not, there is a "Koreans against cancer" group on campus-really? who is for cancer???:confused:).

    This feels like a repeat of the late 19th/early 20th Century when mass immigration created German, Irish, Italian, etc, districts in every city. That era produced a lot of racial distrust, nepotism, and shadow legal authorities in the form of gangsters and organized crime.

    I strongly support immigration and cultural pluralism, but I'm weary of people affiliating exclusively with the hyphenated-American of their ancestry and not engaging what could in fact be a rich and bold new culture that arises when worlds collide.
     
  17. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2003
    Location:
    quae tangit perit Trump
    #17
    People tend to clump, so I don't see a problem in structure like these, so long as they're not limiting or restrictive. However, I do understand why you feel weary about them, there's so much interest in building these groups that sometimes they seem ridiculously granular.

    Assimilation is nearly unavoidable, so while some groups create weird little fiefdoms, the larger culture moves forward.
     
  18. Sedulous macrumors 68020

    Sedulous

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2002
    #18
    That is partly what I was alluding to. When large scale immigration occurs, particularly when absent the desire to actually be a part of the host country, there is less impetus to integrate.
     
  19. Happybunny, Apr 19, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2012

    Happybunny macrumors 68000

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    #19
    Multiculturalism was working so long as there was no mass immigration. It was the sheer numbers that changed the balance, in Europe the immigrates can vote in local elections.
    This has caused a quite large group of general population, to question the whole concept of immigration.

    The far right is just the tip of the iceberg, but far more dangerous is the fact that they drive the main stream parties more to the right. :(
     
  20. MorphingDragon, Apr 19, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2012

    MorphingDragon macrumors 603

    MorphingDragon

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2009
    Location:
    The World Inbetween
    #20
    Its only very recent. How the "Skynet Law" got pushed through and written got the ball rolling. The Kim Dotcom Fiasco only put more on the fire. The fact that TPP is even being considered by the National government is only making things worse.
    (Did I miss any Sayings?)

    I'm not anti-american per-se, I think our government has no spine when it comes to negotiating with America.

    The slang Judas New Zealand probably most aptly describes Anti-Americanism in NZ atm.


    I would agree if it was natural cultural mixing. However its not. Your Government's actions do affect opinions worldwide, and their actions make up most of the exposure America gets worldwide.
     
  21. Tsuchiya macrumors 68020

    Tsuchiya

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    #21
    Over the past year I've noticed a lot more hostility in the UK. It's unfortunate. On the whole London is still great, but there is a lot of ugliness underneath the surface.

    I do believe that a good portion of it is due to the current economic climate, and is concentrated on the working class. It's also partially due to wrong information being passed around. The non-white population in the UK is still relatively small and concentrated around cities, but to hear some people banging on about it you would think that white British folk are an endangered species :eek:

    But it's definitely more then that. There are so many different factors which come into it, I think I could spend the rest of the day typing out this post. Unfortunately, it's such a messy topic and there are VERY fine lines separating out peoples views. However, these lines get confused so often that having a serious discussion is difficult.
     
  22. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    #22
    I suppose then, that I'm anti-clumping.

    Having grown up in a very pluralistic place, I'm horrified that clumping is the norm rather than the exception. I hope it's a short phase, though I harbor cynicism about that hope.

    Clumping produces so many ill effects, including unreported child abuse, domestic violence, financial crime, etc, that I'm very weary to treat it lightly.

    I can attest to some elements of this, though from a more comical perspective.

    Whenever I encounter more recent immigrants who are in my hyphenated-American group, they tend to feel an inexplicable affinity towards me and expect special treatment (if only they knew how much I despise faux friendliness).

    Ultimately though, I think that will pass. There will probably be a little more friction as some of these cultures crash into 21st Century America, but one of the best things about American culture is that it is flexible and changes as it changes immigrant communities.

    I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here. If new immigrants come to the US, what does the government's overseas perception have to do with cultural integration here?
     
  23. AP_piano295 macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2005
    #23
    I find this somewhat surprising, I'm a student at Virginia Commonwealth University (VCU) which is an extremely diverse school (Probably <50% white and huge numbers of immigrants) and I've never noticed any serious problems with racial "cliques".

    Indian students probably tend to clump a little bit more than most. The major reason for this that I can comprehend is that most Indians don't date or have too much of a social life outside of school (parents are much more influential in their lives).

    I've never perceived these cliques as exclusive in any way though. I have (I'm white) always been welcomed in and spend a-lot of school time with this/these groups. I don't spend a ton of time outside of school with them because they don't have much of an independent social life outside of school.

    All that being said my best friends are a native German and a native Inidian, so I don't see much reason to worry about cultural isolationism (where I am at least).
     
  24. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
    #24
    I think this is how California used to be 15-20 years ago, but I suspect that once you cross a certain saturation point, rigid cliques become much more viable (for instance the UC campuses are Asian by plurality, and sometimes by majority).

    I don't have this problem either, but I fear that future generations will. Pluralism was one of the most valuable parts of my childhood, and I'd hate for a generation of kids to lose that.
     
  25. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2003
    Location:
    Penryn
    #25
    Definitely. Here in the US, immigration, whether legal or not, was simply not a major issue until about 2007.

    I think this is the key. Immigration in order to be successful has to occur incrementally. No matter how tolerant a country claims to be, if wave upon wave of immigrants come within a short amount of time, there will be a backlash.



    It mostly works in Canada.
     

Share This Page