British issue war crimes warrant for Livni


yojitani

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Apr 28, 2005
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This is who the British Foreign Secretary issued an arrest warrant for? Really? Is he nuts?

[ImageSnip]

Brings a whole new meaning to Passover...
The foreign secretary did not issue the warrant. No self-respecting politician would ever display anything like an ethical backbone and we would surely never vote for one.
 

BoyBach

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Feb 24, 2006
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This is who the British Foreign Secretary issued an arrest warrant for? Really? Is he nuts?

[ImageSnip]

Brings a whole new meaning to Passover...

This was issued by a judge, not the work experience lad, sorry the Foreign Secretary. The bumfluffed one showed the political classes usual lack of anything approaching a vertebrae by saying that the law needs to be changed so that this can never happen again. (Presumably after receiving an anxious phone call from his former boss, Anthony Blair.)
 

Eraserhead

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Nov 3, 2005
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Maybe I need to write to my MP telling them how good a move this is.

Of course it'll also improve our national security.
 

Eraserhead

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Nov 3, 2005
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:rolleyes:

Do tell us how...
Because it shows that we aren't bias towards one side in the Israeli-Palestinean conflict. And muslim communities around the world (even in Malaysia and Indonesia) get very upset about the way the Palestinians are treated by the Israelis.

Hamas members are already likely to be arrested when they come to the UK (as they are a recognised terrorist organisation), so its only fair to treat the other side in the same way.
 

mkrishnan

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Jan 9, 2004
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I do think it is likely there were warcrimes committed, and she does seem like a likely suspect for having committed them. OTOH the likelihood that the UK will try her is low, much as nothing will come from Italy's in absentia trials of American operatives who committed illegal acts in Europe. But the Israeli government should be held accountable for their behavior, and if others follow suit, then ultimately it will impede their ability to engage in international tasks and perhaps force them to begin behaving responsibly.

So overall, good show, just as long as it isn't an opening salvo of a Berlusconi-esque dissipation of government into sideshow absurdity.
 

Macky-Mac

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May 18, 2004
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Hamas members are already likely to be arrested when they come to the UK (as they are a recognised terrorist organisation), so its only fair to treat the other side in the same way.
Are there actually arrest warrants out for any of the Hamas leadership? Or is it just the case that your government wont deal with them, openly at least, since they're listed as a terrorist organization?
 

Eraserhead

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Are there actually arrest warrants out for any of the Hamas leadership? Or is it just the case that your government wont deal with them, openly at least, since they're listed as a terrorist organization?
I'm not sure to be honest.
 

Macaddicttt

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Apr 22, 2004
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Macky-Mac

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Clearly some people on the Arab side are not happy with the way this was handled by the UK.

From an opinion piece posted on the Al Jazeera web site;

David Miliband, the UK's foreign secretary, has apologised to his Israeli counterpart, Avigdor Lieberman, after the humiliation and embarrassment caused by the issuing of a warrant for the arrest of Tzipi Livni, the former Israeli foreign minister.....

......Miliband also promised to begin work immediately to change UK laws to ensure that no such warrants would be issued for Israeli officials in the future. As an added sweetener to the act of contrition, Gordon Brown, the British prime minister, also personally called Livni to assure her she would always be welcomed to visit the UK....

....The groveling apology to Israel, after the British ambassador was summoned for a reprimand by the Israeli foreign ministry, is the type of reaction expected from a banana republic, not from Great Britain.

Should the foreign secretary entertain Lieberman, a Jewish settler himself and a resident of Nokdim, a West Bank settlement considered illegal under international law? What a contradiction....

...What is at stake in this imbroglio is the independence of the British judiciary, an institution that for hundreds of years has been a source of national pride and emulated by many nations.

It is for this reason there is anger and outrage over the government's declared intent to succumb to Israel. The implication, of course, is the fear that in future Britain would not be able to lay any claim to be a bastion and guardian of international law....
 

IntheNet

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Oct 6, 2009
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Clearly some people on the Arab side are not happy with the way this was handled by the UK.
Good...

For the British to so badly insult Israel by even considering arresting Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni is both reprehensible and deserving of long and prostrate apology; clearly U.K. Ambassador Tom Phillips needs to get a better handle on his nation's magistrate court lunatics. Moreover, should the Westminster magistrate court judges need to fill their jails with war-crime perpetrators there are more than enough Hamas and Hezbollah terrorist representatives to fit the bill... Good reference material here:"Israel may be a difficult ally – but its leaders are not 'war criminals'" (Telegraph).
 

skunk

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Jun 29, 2002
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For the British to so badly insult Israel by even considering arresting Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni is both reprehensible and deserving of long and prostrate apology
Livni is not the Israeli Foreign Minister. Nor are the British courts supposed to be under the control of whichever craven Foreign Secretary is in post in Whitehall.
 

Eraserhead

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Nov 3, 2005
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Livni is not the Israeli Foreign Minister. Nor are the British courts supposed to be under the control of whichever craven Foreign Secretary is in post in Whitehall.
Yeah if she was a current politician the argument for not trying to arrest her would be much stronger - you can't arrest people who are currently in government when they come to your country.

David Milliband has gone down in my respect for his apology.
 

mkrishnan

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Jan 9, 2004
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Yeah if she was a current politician the argument for not trying to arrest her would be much stronger - you can't arrest people who are currently in government when they come to your country.
I'm not sure I follow the argument that it is not appropriate to arrest someone suspected of war crimes / crimes against humanity because they are currently in office... Wasn't Pinochet still a Senator of some sort when your government arrested him for his crimes against humanity? And isn't Livni currently an MP?
 

skunk

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I'm not sure I follow the argument that it is not appropriate to arrest someone suspected of war crimes / crimes against humanity because they are currently in office... Wasn't Pinochet still a Senator of some sort when your government arrested him for his crimes against humanity? And isn't Livni currently an MP?
It would be wrong to arrest a government minister on an official visit. That is the real distinction.
 

mkrishnan

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Jan 9, 2004
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It would be wrong to arrest a government minister on an official visit. That is the real distinction.
I agree, in the sense that it is wrong to "shoot the messenger," I guess... although there seem to be several distinctions (this is my own opinion here).

1) Is there a prima facie case that the person is personally involved in the commission of the crime, rather than just being the first member of the government one can grab? (In this case, appears to be, yes.)

2) Is the warrant being issued specifically to entrap the person while they are there on an official visit of state (Here, she seems to have been invited to the country, but the Jewish National Fund doesn't seem to constitute a visit of state).

3) To a lesser extent, does arresting the individual and trying them for war crimes hinder a credible diplomatic attempt to stop the ongoing war crimes themselves (in this case, I would go for no, since I don't see that there is a likelihood that the day-to-day crimes will stop under the current approach, and the war campaign itself is over).

I would personally consider it reasonable for a government to issue a warrant for the arrest of a political official at any level of government, if they are not on a state visit, are personally implicated in the commission of crimes against humanity, and if the arrest does not acutely hinder a diplomatic approach likely to immediately cease or reduce ongoing crimes.
 

Eraserhead

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Wasn't Pinochet still a Senator of some sort when your government arrested him for his crimes against humanity? And isn't Livni currently an MP?
Possibly but those individuals weren't/aren't currently in government at the time - Pinochet stepped down as president of Chile in 1990.