Bush: Armenian Massacre not Genocide

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Lord Blackadder, Oct 10, 2007.

  1. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #1
    Bush opposes the passing of a bill declaring the killings of Armenians a genocide.

    Relations with Turkey are touchy, and this bill might lead to Turkish incursions in Iraq to deal with Kurdish separatists...they've been threatening to do it for some time. Turkey has made it clear that the passage of this resolution will damage US-Turkish relations considerably.

    By modern standards I think it was a genocide, but Turkish nationalists fear that Holocaust-style reparations demands will follow in the wake of any official admission that a systematic killing took place.

    Ultimately I think the possible effects on the Iraq situation are motivating Bush here.
     
  2. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #2
    I think that Bush opposes igniting this subject which is sensitive to Turkey at a time when relations with them are touchy. Why it's important one way or another to make a statement about something that happened during WWI is beyond me. Why a country that wasn't even a world superpower at the time it happened on the other side of the world needs to make any declaration at all is questionable. Armenia says it happened and Turkey says it didn't. Why is it important to put in our two cents?
     
  3. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #3
    Because America is the arbiter of world affairs. If the US says it didn't happen, it didn't happen; if the US says it happened, it happened. It doesn't matter that we have no reason to comment on the event.

    In a related note, the government of East Timor declined the opportunity to declare the American Civil War a tragic war.
     
  4. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #4
    Why 90 years after the conclusion of WWI do we have to say ANYTHING?
     
  5. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #5
    Because we just spent 2 trillion dollars invading Iraq? Maybe a couple of pennies to the Armenians isn't going to kill us?

    The US in bushco's eyes has become the arbiter of freedom, democracy and the pursuit of wealth. However, since Armenia has no mineral wealth, in his mind there's absolutely no reason to make even the tiniest of statements.

    I'm suspicious of the intentions of the people on the other side of the fence as well. However, the last thing the world needs is a resurgent Ottoman Empire. Countries need to face up to the ugly chapters of their history. If the US doesn't lend its weight to this issue, it's very possible that Turkey will continue to ignore large chapters of its murderous past.
     
  6. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #6
    Let's embark on a complete combing of recent history then and whine about Japan, Germany, China, and all the other regimes not currently in power that perpetrated crimes. Will we then have a better world after we get done picking all the scabs you want reopened?
     
  7. KingYaba macrumors 68040

    KingYaba

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    #7
    Ottoman Empire?
     
  8. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #8
    No, the US. We didn't achieve our current position in the world until the end of WWII.
     
  9. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #9
    Turkey is positioning tanks at the border, get ready Turkey,Iraq and throw in in Iran and Syria then U.S. & Russia and it aint pretty. Genocide is genocide and Turkey not seeing that is pretty stupid.
     
  10. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #10
    We should probably **** about the Holocaust too. No reason to revisit these unpleasantries.
     
  11. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #11
    The victims and the residents of Israel can talk about it all they want. We aren't strong arming people based on whether they acknowledge it or not. Seems we just had the Denier in Chief visit Columbia just the other week as a matter of fact.

    It's funny how you guys want to tippy toe around all the Middle Easterners that are our enemies on just about everything, but the Turks who we've been cultivating a relationship with for years you want to get in their faces on something that happened during WWI.
     
  12. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #12
    I agree that this is just a symbolic gesture for symbolic gesture's sake, but the Turks shouldn't get the gold star just yet. The slaughter of the Armenians is something the Turks should remember and it should give them some pause when they deal with the Kurds.

    As for your last comment, I think your strawman needs a rest, his legs are getting tired from holding your arguments up. Give the guy a break. ;)
     
  13. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #13
    Didn't we invade Iraq because of something that happened 20 years ago? When they were still our buddies actually? Yet Darfur is happening right now, as is Myanmar, and we do nothing. We can't even declare something was what it was? Other countries can, and have, and should, but we can't. Sadly, this doesn't surprise me. We shouldn't have to be afraid of what another country may or may not do if we really think they did something wrong, as Turkey clearly did at the time. But we're in such a weak position thanks to Iraq, I guess we don't have much of a choice. This just highlights that fact.

    Thanks again GW!
     
  14. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #14
    The concept of "friends" in terms of international "relationships" is fleeting and worthless.
     
  15. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #15
    Looks like the vote went through...I agree with the resolution but this will certainly lead to international complications of some sort. Let's see if the Turkish response is merely rhetoric or action as well.
     
  16. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #16
    Well, Turkey just recalled their Ambassador to the US for consultations. Good thing we made that symbolic gesture.:rolleyes:
     
  17. mactastic macrumors 68040

    mactastic

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    #17
    So in 85 years the motto regarding 9/11 will be "let's all just quit griping about it"?
     
  18. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #18
    No, but I don't think we'll put up with countries we consider our allies passing resolutions about what did or did not happen. I guess Congress will spend the rest of the legislative session combing through history and passing resolutions on real and perceived wrongs.

    Great job! Actually I couldn't be happier about it frankly. The main reason that we didn't partition Iraq into three parts and give the Kurds their own country or state was to placate the Turks. Now we don't have to worry about that much longer and when the Turks start firing on the Kurdish rebels and start yet another war front there, at least we'll have the footnotes in our history books straight.
     
  19. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #19
    With all the issues we have facing this country, a war, a president out of control,deficit skyrocketing, millions of illegals, etc etc and congress is passing a resolution on something a hundred years ago. OUR CONGRESS SUCKS!BOTH DEMOCRATS & REPUBLICANS!KICK THEM ALL OUT!!!:mad:
     
  20. pseudobrit macrumors 68040

    pseudobrit

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    #20
    Why should we worry about the strength of a "friendship" when that friendship is contingent on our facilitating the active denial of past transgressions?

    If the Federal Republic of Germany were to take an official stance of Holocaust denial, should we just keep mum in order not to upset diplomatic relations?

    Why would any self-respecting American want the US to act like cowardly sycophants? What happened to our balls?
     
  21. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #21
    I'll wager that the vast majority of Americans (or really anyone who isn't either of Armenian descent or a student of history) don't know anything about the Armenian uprising, so it's fair to say that most don't have an informed opinion.

    Hopefully this will bring attention to the issue so that people can have informed dialog about it, rather than a discussion based entirely on comparisons and metaphors used due to a lack of knowledge of the actual event.

    Even if all people read is the Wikipedia article on it that's a start.
     
  22. Agathon macrumors 6502a

    Agathon

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    #22
    Hey, everyone point and laugh.

    Apparently, it is completely evil for Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to claim that the holocaust might not have been a holocaust, but it's just peachy for George Bush to waffle over whether the Armenian genocide was in fact a genocide.

    There, in a nutshell, is why people hate the United States.
     
  23. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #23
    Looks like you figured it all out there...excuse me while I go hate myself. :rolleyes:
     
  24. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #24
    They went out the window when instead of furthering what we had after 9/11, we decided to piss it all away to lose our credibility by screwing up in Iraq.
     
  25. Agathon macrumors 6502a

    Agathon

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    #25
    You really ought to. Can you not see how sanctimonious hypocrisy like this from your government damages your own prospects?

    In other news, Bush is clearly wrong. The Turks themselves are on the verge of beginning to deal with this despicable episode. Having other people call them on it probably makes it harder, but it's going to happen anyway, given recent political developments in Turkey.
     

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