Bush blames citizens for healthcare problems

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by it5five, Jul 10, 2007.

  1. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #1
    http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/10/bush-on-health-care-its-all-your-fault/

    I can't believe this.

    Actually, I can. I imagine in the next few days we will see this same absurd idea parroted in the right-wing media in this country. Meanwhile, nothing will be done to fix the problem of our healthcare system, and the insurance industries will continue to profit from death and suffering for decades.

    Reminds me of that Onion article where Bush blames the failure in Iraq on the troops.
     
  2. Abstract macrumors Penryn

    Abstract

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    #2
    I do agree with a part of what he says, though.

    People really should be taking better care of themselves. If people lived a healthier lifestyle, the country would save huge amounts of money that could go towards other things like education, or better coverage for medication, particularly for senior citizens. Really, the best and most efficient healthcare system is one where the clinics and hospitals aren't overstressed with problems that are caused by people's poor lifestyle choices, not accidents or bad luck. Trying to promote living an active and healthy lifestyle is one of the best ways to improve the medical system.
     
  3. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #3
    "people have access to healthcare in america. after all, just go to the emergency room."

    what a horse's ass.
     
  4. janey macrumors 603

    janey

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    #4
    Now, when you consider who exactly is part of the reason for overcrowding clinics and hospitals - it's those people working too hard to make a living to support themselves and perhaps their family who don't have the time or money to live an active and healthy lifestyle. And even if they maybe had the time to live an active and healthy lifestyle, who'd promote such a thing? Perhaps, the doctors they don't necessarily have the money to go to.

    I'm not saying that that's not a good idea, it is sensible to promote such a lifestyle, but it's not feasible as is right now to solve the overcrowding issue on its own without solving some other issues first (affordable healthcare for starters), let alone the healthcare industry's corruption.

    I really wish the monkey would be impeached already. So sick of his ignorance.
     
  5. it5five thread starter macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #5
    Every time I hear him talk it makes me incredibly angry. He has no clue what he is talking about. It seems like he makes this **** up as he goes along.
     
  6. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #6
    bush is such a goddamned simpleton. his whole argument appears to be:

    1. private good
    2. public bad
    3. don't incent people to use public

    no surprise there.

    and notice how he cleverly equates those who want to get on a "federalized" healthcare system with those who smoke and don't exercise. is exercising his proposed plan for the uninsured? "you don't need insurance, you exercise!"

    he can't discuss anything without defining a bad guy. here, i guess it's the fat lefties and those too lazy to get private insurance. what a ****ing simpleton.
     
  7. Abstract macrumors Penryn

    Abstract

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    #7
    Also, I also wanted to comment on comment on "transparency and pricing". Ontario (Canada) actually applied that.

    Healthcare in Ontario is free. People know that. People complain about the medical system, but deep down, we do love it. I have never had to pay for anything. I simply give my doctor my Ontario Healthcare card, they swipe, and I sit down. The doctor gets his money from the government, and there's no trouble. There's no dual private-public system like they have in places like Australia, which is good.

    However, people complain about lineups at GPs and hospitals, and how/where the money was being used. The government decides that while healthcare should remain free (ie: the way it is now), you should get a sheet of paper outlining exactly what the government has paid for on your behalf. I don't go to the doctor and never use the medical system, but reading the newspapers.......people were in shock. They didn't know how much it cost to go to the doctor just because their son coughed once and "may" have had a slight cold.

    People abused the healthcare system here. Why? Because it was free, and so easy to use, that they went on a whim. I'm not sure if showing people the cost of healthcare helped people use more discretion before seeing the doctor, but I hope it did. People in Ontario go to the doctor for the dumbest reason. :eek:

    It can start from something as simple as eating better and healthier. People cause a lot of their own problems. I'm not saying I agree with the what he said. I don't. I think he's wrong. However, he made 1 or 2 good points (but provided no answers on how to take care of the issues he brought up during his speech :rolleyes: ).
     
  8. janey macrumors 603

    janey

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    #8
    I don't know. Sometimes it can look like "just a cold" or something, but you never know if it might be something more serious, or the beginning of something more serious.

    And certainly getting something trivial like that treated quickly is much better than that turning into something nasty (and more expensive) quite fast.
     
  9. bartelby macrumors Core

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    #9
    It's the same in the UK.
    Yes, the NHS is flawed and everything, but it's better than nothing. I personally couldn't afford private healthcare.
    And living in Wales prescription medications are free!
     
  10. it5five thread starter macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #10
    And what upsets me most is that people actually applaud that ****. Bush isn't the only simpleton; most of the American public is. It shouldn't have taken this long for the majority of this country to support impeachment. It's disgusting the amount of ******** the American public is willing to put up with before they get angry.
     
  11. janey macrumors 603

    janey

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    #11
    Actually...even something as "simple" as eating better and healthier can be difficult.

    http://foodstampchallenge.typepad.com/

    For what it's worth, from personal experience it is not very easy. A year ago, my dad, who is diabetic and at that point, had been through a couple of recent eye surgeries due to severe diabetic retinopathy, was told he really needed to make some changes to his diet for his own good, and to exercise more regularly. So, white rice being one of the foods he'd consume most, we went to the market to buy whole grain replacements instead. Hell, we couldn't find them. We found brown rice at a higher cost than the white rice, but pretty much everything else was nonexistant or pathetic at the supermarkets we'd regularly go to.

    So we now shop at places like Whole Foods more often (whole paycheck indeed), because even though it's pricier, at least we could find whole grain products, so I could make mac and cheese with whole grain macaroni, and whole grain linguini with salmon and fresh veggies, and wow! quinoa! can you even FIND that in most markets? We also go to the various farmers markets, because very fresh produce can be found for very cheap there, sometimes even as much as less than half of what the same thing would cost at Whole Foods or Albertsons. And we occasionally go out of our way to go to bakeries to find more than just one kind of some bread that isn't white, like at markets. The list goes on.

    Then he goes to the gym almost every day, and runs a couple miles in the mornings too. And since he doesn't work, he can have the pleasure of eating 4-5 smaller meals a day with snacks inbetween, like ice cream and frozen yogurt I make at home with as little sugar or Splenda (yes, I know it might not be good, but..) as possible, because commercial ice cream with little to no sugar tastes like crap and the flavors are really boring too.

    At least my family has the money and the time to do this, but just how many others are in such a position? What we're doing right now is almost impossible to pull off when you don't have $1-200 to spend on groceries alone every week for 3 people who also eat out ~10 meals a week, or the time to get up Saturday morning to go to the nearby farmers market.
     
  12. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #12
    What kills me is that for all the liberal whining about the robber baron insurance companies or the healthcare establishment that three of the richest men in the world Gates, Buffet and Soros - avowed libs - haven't pooled their money to create an alternative that's the workable solution everyone dreams of. They could single handedly undercut all these expensive "private" companies and drive prices down.
     
  13. Queso macrumors G4

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    #13
    This is the same Gates, Buffett and Soros who are using their money to alleviate world poverty? Liberalism doesn't stop at national borders.
     
  14. devilot Moderator emeritus

    devilot

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    #14
    Exactly. I remember in HS, my friend and I went to the grocery store 'cause I was craving mac 'n' cheese (the awful-for-you Kraft kind :eek:). I bought a 6-box package for < $3 (note the box states that one box contains, er I think two servings so I bought essentially twelve meals). My friend wanted to lose weight so she bought a single peach for $2.xx.

    Hmm. One peach for nearly the same price as twelve (allbeit unhealthy) meals. Now imagine you're a family or even a single parent struggling to make ends meet and your family/kids are hungry (duh)-- which would you opt for?

    Eating healthy is not cheap. Nor, as janey so aptly demonstrated, is it for those without the time and energy to keep up.
     
  15. atszyman macrumors 68020

    atszyman

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    #15
    Can we demand that Congress revoke funding for insurance for Executive branch employees and make them pay out of pocket for their own private insurance? Can we make them live by their own words and claim that they just need to live healthier? How many heart attacks would Cheney have to have before agreeing that the system is broken? Would Cheney even be insurable?
     
  16. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #16
    I'm not sure where your friend got a peach for $2+, but it doesn't sound like a grocery store (that's somewhere around $10/pound).

    It's much easier to eat healthy than it used to be - the healthier stuff is filtering down to the masses. Whole grain pasta? For an extra $.15/box I can upgrade. The "refried" beans that don't have any added fat are cheaper than all of the other ones anyway. Maybe you can't get the nicest bread that has all sorts of grains and costs $4/load, but you can get whole grain for $1.50. Fresh vegetables - they are often cheaper than anything preserved. If they aren't, grab the healthiest can of whatever. When you're walking around the grocery store, don't lean on your cart and let it drag you - stand up and push it. Compare the labels - don't just buy the cheapest stuff. you might spend an extra nickel on that can of soup, but cutting hte sodium in half is worth it. You don't need soda and chips and cookies. When you can't afford the fun stuff, you learn to make do without it. Having tasties is nice, but it's more important to eat somewhat healthy. If you're having trouble with your food spending - make a menu, buy what you need. Even better - use as many of the same elementals as you can throughout the week. That way, you can buy what's on sale and use it throughout the week. And learn that a vegetarian diet can be cheap. We try not to eat meat more than once or twice a week - it's just too expensive to do so. And don't tell me that it takes too long to make something. a couple of minutes on the stove (or a few seconds in the microwave) are enough to heat up the beans, get some wheat tortillas (the same price or a few cents more than the white), throw on some spinach leaves (commoditization has made them really cheap), and you'll be done before your neighbor gets home with that bag o' burgers.

    The point is, it isn't as hard as it used to be to be healthy. Most people just refuse to look around a little.

    So, yes, I believe that we are crippling the health care system. It may be struggling anyway, but we aren't doing it any favors. Just wait until the old folks get older and the young folks get lazier.

    And don't get me started on how trial lawyers are doing their part to kill off the caring spirit of many of the best doctors who would have been willing to help others who couldn't have afforded care
     
  17. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    Who's "we"? You mean getting our Senators and Congressmen to revoke the special Federal retirement and health plans that they also enjoy? Surely you jest.
     
  18. atszyman macrumors 68020

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    #18
    "We" are voters, those who have to live within the system set up by government employees/politicians who have tax payer funded benefits that most of us could only dream of.

    I'd love to see a standard set forth where any politician who claims Social Security is broken and needs to be dismantled, and that it's "our" fault for not saving give up their government pension. Any politician who claims that healthcare is not broken should be forced to give up their taxpayer funded coverage and see what it's like for those who have to deal with the healthcare insurance industry. Any politician who claims that the poor just aren't working hard enough should have their salary dropped back to the minimum wage and be allowed to work an extra job or two to see how easy it is to make ends meet...

    In short I'm tired of being told it is "our" fault we don't have X from people who've had everything handed to them all their lives and have very little need or want of money.

    I'm not saying that the government should supply everything but I think anyone of the politicians who tries to blame the citizens for their problems should lead by example and show us how to overcome those problems by giving up their hefty tax payer funded salaries and/or benefits. It's easy to say its our fault for not doing X but it's so easy to do X show us.
     
  19. Abstract macrumors Penryn

    Abstract

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    #19
    I understand your point, but what we're talking about is entirely different. You're talking about someone who changed his diet due to a specific medical condition. Yes, that would be expensive. I'm talking about "in general", at any age and condition. Generally, if people made healthier food choices, that they would be helping the medical system tremendously just by lightening the load on hospitals and doctors. Bush said something about doctors being limited in their ability to help you if your condition is caused by your own vices.......like smoking (for example). That's true. If you keep smoking, and your condition stays, do you keep going back to the doctor for help? What's the point when the patient isn't being held accountable for his own health and lifestyle? He's just a repeat customer, but one that's clogging the system up with cases that can't be resolved.

    Want to eat some Cheeto's as a snack? Grab an apple instead.

    Do you eat too much meat for dinner? Why not eat half as much meat, but throw in a salad as well?

    Feel like having your 7th coffee of the day, or your 5th can of Coke? Why not have a glass of water sometimes and only have 1 can of Coke a day, or "only" 2 cups of coffee?

    Going to the 3rd floor? Take the stairs and walk up 2 levels rather than take the lift.



    If a peach costs $2.xx in your State, then you're getting ripped off, or it was off peak-season for fruits, and you're paying for one of the most expensive fruits at that time. There were other choices. Besides.....$2.xx for one peach? I never said go nuts and spend your savings buying fruit. You need to use economic sense.

    I just don't want anyone coming back to me and telling me that my advice made them bankrupt. :p ;) Be partly responsible for your health, but also be responsible for your own finances. It ain't my fault if you buy $2.xx peaches.
     
  20. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #20
    I honestly don't know any fat lefties other than Michael Moore. I know a LOT of fat conservatives though. ;)
     
  21. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #21
    i have to admit, i don't understand your take here. let's take me as an example: i work out 2-3x/week, i walk 3mi roundtrip to go grocery shopping and to the butcher (1-2x/week), i cook my own food (relatively healthy stuff). my health issues are relatively minor, i don't see the doctor much, and when i have a cold or a flu i almost always take care of it myself.

    BUT -- i have a pre-existing condition, am self-employed, and am eligible for exactly one insurance plan. that plan is state-sponsored, but it still costs me $530/mo, w/ a $2k deductible, for an 80/20 PPO that seems to spend more time, energy and effort in denying me coverage than for paying what little i do need.

    i feel like you're painting my situation as my fault, or at least partially, but i'm doing the best i can and i still get screwed by "the Corporate Man". so what exactly are you proposing here? and are you claiming that my PPO screws me because other people are too fat?
     
  22. nbs2 macrumors 68030

    nbs2

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    #22
    Just to be clear - are you unhappy with just the politicians or with government employees as well?

    Living in the land of bureaucrats, I know plenty of government employees that work two jobs in order to make ends meet, who have to reside in DINK, or who struggle for most of their early careers if they do try and have a family. Later in their service, they do a little better (but are still not living lives of luxury). The benefits, especially the pension, are what keep the people there - they could make much more cash in the private sector (my dad makes about 50% of what he could make if he went private). When you realize that the pension is essentially deferred salary, it isn't really a bad thing.

    Politicians are a good deal mroe troublesome. In the past, they were some of the brightest minds in the country. Pay and benefit were intended to attract them out of the private sector. What Congress has become, well that's a whole other ball of wax.
     
  23. zimv20 macrumors 601

    zimv20

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    #23
    this was posted on dailykos earlier today. it's in response to michael moore's reaction on CNN to gupta's hit piece against Sicko (apparently, gupta has since issued retractions), but it's a good rant and i thought some of it is applicable here:
     
  24. devilot Moderator emeritus

    devilot

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    #24
    Agreed on that (and yes, I did read the part of your post that said you found fault w/ the system as well as w/ most of what Bush said :p).

    First of all, I didn't buy that peach. ;) And yes, it was likely out of season. That said, I think what I'm trying to get at that you and nbs2 aren't really addressing, aren't the middle to upper socioeconomic class, I think the folks most likely to benefit immediately from better health coverage would be the lower income bracket folks. And as for "economic sense," again, with my example, if you're a struggling family (and in part of the lower income bracket), which makes more sense-- several unhealthy meals that can feed more than one person for $3 or a some (healthy) snacks?
     
  25. atszyman macrumors 68020

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    #25
    Pretty much just the politicians and some of the top aides who are most vocal about terminating government programs because if you need them you're doing something wrong.

    Congressmen are paid quite well and get a raise every year unless they vote not to get one. The default for inaction on raises is to get a raise... how does that work? The President and VP don't do too bad in the salary department and many of our current politicians come from money to begin with.

    I know there are a lot of "crap" government jobs, someone has to clean the buildings, and I've never complained about my postman/woman getting paid too much. But I don't see them telling me that the healthcare industry is problematic because I don't life healthily enough either....

    It's easy to say that we don't need healthcare reform when you have good insurance benefits, or that Social Security should be dismantled when your family has more money than they can spend in a lifetime.
     

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