But wait, Mexico's paying for the wall still, right?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by JayMysterio, Apr 22, 2017.

  1. JayMysterio macrumors 6502

    JayMysterio

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    #1
    http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-acti...house-offering-trade-on-obamacare-border-wall

    "President Trump's budget chief, Mick Mulvaney, said Friday that the White House is offering Democrats money for key ObamaCare payments in exchange for money to help fund the president's proposed border wall.

    "We'd offer them $1 of CSR payments for $1 of wall payments. Right now that's the offer that we've given to our Democratic colleagues," Mulvaney said during a Bloomberg Live interview, referring to the insurance company reimbursements known as cost-sharing reduction (CSR).

    Mulvaney added that the administration had "finally boiled this negotiation down to" the border wall and the cost-reduction payments, which offset costs for insurers who cover ObamaCare's low-income enrollees.

    Lawmakers have through April 28 to enact legislation to avoid a government shutdown, but they appear to be increasingly at an impasse.

    Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer's (D-N.Y.) office immediately shot down a deal to exchange the ObamaCare payments for funding for Trump's border wall, calling it as a "nonstarter."

    "The White House gambit to hold hostage health care for millions of Americans, in order to force American taxpayers to foot the bill for a wall that the President said would be paid for by Mexico is a complete nonstarter," said Matt House, a spokesman for Schumer.
    "

    So now the plan is to withhold payments for ACA, to cover for an unfulfillable campaign promise. Yeah, that doesn't seem to cynical. :mad:
     
  2. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #2
    as people realize that they will loose land and the wall may be as ugly as trumps orange skin I doubt it will happen.
     
  3. SusanK macrumors 68000

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    #3
    I read a good wall comment on another site. "Build a big beautiful wall and put the Crazy Orange Guy on the other side"
     
  4. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #4
    Have the Democrats at least made a proposal for keeping the government over that could potentially be voted on, or are they acting like the Republicans were with the last government shutdowns?
     
  5. JayMysterio thread starter macrumors 6502

    JayMysterio

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    #5
    Have we moved the goal posts now, so that the minority democrats are responsible for keeping the government afloat?

    Oh wait, I forgot it was the fault of the minority democrats that 45 couldn't get Trump care thru a republican controlled congress. :confused:

    Democrats aren't asking for something to keep the government from shutting down. They aren't holding the government hostage if a demand they asked for isn't met. Quite the opposite, the president is using the threat of defunding a government program to coerce democrats to go along with a program that he said himself would not be funded by the American people. If the democrats go along now, you really think 45 won't pull the same stunt again later? Especially funding for a program he's actively campaigned to repeal? Imagine the concept, the president of the United States is willing to hold a program for the citizens of the United States hostage, so he can keep a foolish promise he personally made.

    That's on the democrats? o_O
     
  6. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #6
    [​IMG]
     
  7. JayMysterio, Apr 22, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2017

    JayMysterio thread starter macrumors 6502

    JayMysterio

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    #7
    To offset a wall that U.S. citizens will NOT have to pay for! So why is there need to offset something that we aren't paying for?

    [​IMG]

    "So far, every cost estimate of the construction has shown the wall will be expensive and difficult to build. A specific price tag and building plan have yet to be announced, and the White House is still requesting proposals. This initial funding request is meant to start the process and buy some time to work out the rest of the plan.

    But the strategy — fund now, figure out the rest later — has not convinced some conservative budget hawks.

    "I prefer to see a plan first before we start appropriating money,” Sen. John Cornyn (R-TX) told Politico. "We won't just appropriate money and have the plan TBD. And I've got some questions.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  8. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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  9. samiwas macrumors 65816

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    #9
    This actually is the art of the deal. Make them think they're getting something. Get them all excited. Then **** them right up the ***. And they'll thank you for it.
     
  10. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #10
    The idea was never to get a check from the Mexican government, it was to build the wall and take the money back through trade renegotiations and money transfers to their country. If Trump takes them to the tool shed on NAFTA then I think this would be fine, if he flops on renegotiations then it's something else.

    The point would be to deflate Mexico to the point that they wish they just made a cash payment.
     
  11. forcesteeler macrumors 6502

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    #11

    You still believe a con man like trump? the same guy that says Obama phone tapped him but then does not provide any evidence?

    Mexico is not going to pay for nothing!, Its the US Taxpayers!


    You can't trust these republicans Bait and Switch, Its the same talking points leading up to the Iraq War. Everyone was asking who is going to pay for the Iraq War. They told us the Iraq's will pay for there freedom with there oil fields, 14 Years Later, and 2-3 Trillion Dollars, We the American Tax Payer is still paying for War!
     
  12. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #12
    In other words, sadistic and evil treatment of a long-standing ally because they wouldn't play along with trump's unnecessary and extravagant xenophobic dystopian nightmare.
     
  13. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #13
    Mexico is letting Central Americans traverse through their country to get to the US and also is doing nothing to stop their own people from jumping the border, while their corrupt government also allows drugs to flow through the country and over the border, if that's an ally we don't need enemies.

    I'm sure they love the cash transfers back across the border though from the US. Time for a tax.
    --- Post Merged, Apr 23, 2017 ---
    NAFTA is getting renegotiated very soon, so the proof will be in the pudding. If Trump sticks it to Mexico then it will be reported in the news. Look for the news headlines calling him a bigot and racist for negotiating better terms for the US.
     
  14. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #14
    Renegotiating NAFTA isn't going to do anything, other than raise prices for US consumers, and damage our exporters. Give it a couple of years, and you'll probably start to see US auto plants, which rely on imported parts from Maquiladora factories, start closing.

    Trump is a moron. He doesn't understand how trade, or economics, actually works.

    Idiots like Trump seem to think that international trade deals somehow leave foreign governments with huge piles of cash that dopey US negotiators left on the table. They don't. Mexico doesn't have a huge pile of cash it racks up every time a truck crosses the border carrying Mexican-made alternators or avocados.

    Walking away from NAFTA would result in one thing: A massive tax on imported goods. But it's going to be paid by US consumers. Not those naughty Mexicans. It will add hundreds of dollars to the price of a US-made automobile. And it will add tens of dollars to most families monthly grocery bill.

    To pay for a useless wall that will be an ecological and political white elephant.
     
  15. mac_in_tosh macrumors regular

    mac_in_tosh

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  16. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #16
    Build a wall - get a flood of boat people and migrants arriving by air.
     
  17. steve knight, Apr 23, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2017

    steve knight macrumors 68020

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    #17
    I wish we could put a wall up around the white house and keep trump in. Keep all the backroom deals for money down and keep trump from wandering the neiborhood like a loose dog barking and digging in the trash.
     
  18. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #18
    So you are an advocate of a race to the bottom model where we offshore jobs to other countries because they are able to skimp on human rights and pay their employees pennies? The extra money we would pay for products funds US jobs, the only benefit to having trade negotiations is if we have a competitive advantage that we can provide them at reduced cost and visa versa. If we are landing year over year trade deficits it's not sustainable in the long term and the cheap goods consumer economy won't last forever.

    Trump takes advantage of these foreign deals as well so I'm sure he's more aware than most of how we get cheap goods overseas.
     
  19. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #19
    I'm sure he's quite aware how to get cheap goods from overseas.

    His and Ivanka's products for instance ...
     
  20. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #20
    we are already there. think trump will make it stop? he can't even follow his own wishes with his own products or his own labor. yes it would be great if we brought back more jobs to the us but who is willing to pay of it? business is sure not going to pay so it would be up the the consumer. do you think they will be willing to pay more for a product? they already to to shop the lowest price. even luxury goods are not made in the us. trump has been unwilling to make the sacrifice. trump has become a huge hypocrite by not following what he was the rest of us to do. with trump it is all blow and no show.
     
  21. JayMysterio thread starter macrumors 6502

    JayMysterio

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    #21
    Taking a break from all the fallacies about who's going to pay for the wall when, let's go back to my original point.

    Trump supporters who've recently discovered they like the ACA ( I love mentioning this when I can, but you know they love ACA, because it's no longer called Obamacare by them ;) ), are also big supporters for the wall. 45's latest attempt to get his wall done, even though he can't get Mexico to outright pay for it like he led his supporters to believe during the campaign trail, is to use the very ACA his supporters now like as a blackmail tool against democrats to fund his wall. o_O

    For a guy who claims to be the master of deals, he's got to see he paints the democrats into a corner with nice seating & room service. 45 believes that the public will blame the democrats for his sabotaging the ACA, something that's already been planned by republicans, if they don't concede to his demands for a wall they don't want. Forgetting he's already said he wants to repeal & replace ACA, why would democrats think he won't pull the same shenanigans on anything he wants in the future. There's a reason why we don't negotiate with hostage takers, you open that door once, you may as well leave it open. 45's demonstrated repeatedly he can't be trusted.

    So now he's willing to use his own supporters as a tool against democrats to keep a campaign promise to his supporters.

    Wow!

    Digressing

    This is also overlooking my main issue with the wall itself. The wall itself will be a marvel of corruption in the U.S. we haven't seen the likes ( Koff Halliburton Koff ) of before. If you live in a city where any road, public stadium ( ironically built for private teams :mad: ), or other structures, you know that the proposed price NEVER matches the midway construction price or the final price. Whatever figure we hear now that is asked for you know you can double to quadruple the actual figure if not more later on. The companies that get the jobs will probably be owned by those that make a deal with the administration, small companies will be left out, and the swamp will increase exponentially. If you think the Russian reporting is too much for you, I am sure there are reporters already dreaming of their pulitzer's if this wall begins. Not to mention the countless lawsuits that will fly back & forth between companies screwed out of opportunities, proper compensation, and more.
     
  22. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #22
    Not at all.

    The way that free trade works is this: Foreign companies like BMW and Mercedes have built car factories in the US to supply our market, taking advantage of the low cost of components built in Mexican maquiladora factories.

    We in the US get the high value-added jobs involved in assembling BMWs and Mercedes. As consumers, we get to buy top quality vehicles, whose overall cost is reduced by being able to incorporate low-cost Mexican made components (alternators, HVAC systems, etc.)

    Without the availability of low-cost Mexican made auto parts, companies like BMW, Mercedes, Honda, Hyundai, etc. wouldn't build cars here at all. And without those low-cost Mexican-made auto parts, tens of thousands of people in Carolina and Alabama wouldn't have well-paid auto manufacturing jobs.

    International free trade lets each economy do what it does best. Mexico makes great auto components. US factories hire higher-skilled workers to make great cars, far cheaper than if they required an artificial 100% US made bill of materials.

    And, in case you missed it, free trade agreements like NAFTA (and the recently jettisoned TPP) are specifically designed to address environmental and labor rules in countries that wish to export to the US.

    If you really want a "race to the bottom" - walking away from NAFTA is the way to make it happen.
     
  23. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    The Republicans were able to shut it down by refusing to negotiate when they were not completely in charge. So I'd say the goal posts are the same. The Democrats should try to work with moderate Republicans to keep the government open and bypass the crazys on the far right. If it fails or Trump doesn't sign it then the shutdown will be on the Republicans.
     
  24. jpietrzak8 macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #24
    As I remember it, the original idea was to get a check from the Mexican government. It was only after Trump finally realized that this was impossible that he went to his advisors and came up with a plan to try and enforce payment via manipulating US-Mexico trade arrangements. (And fat chance of that if we kill NAFTA and stop trading with Mexico.)

    And messing around with personal money transfers? Forget that, people will simply stop transferring money over the border.
     
  25. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #25
    This isn't a trade agreement, this is a cheap labor/parts input. Trade assumes some sort of back and forth between two countries. Benefits are supposed to come from resource availability, scale and competitive advantage, not from cheap dumb labor. The trade deficit says it all, and Trump is going to make sure they don't try to outsource the next level of jobs (ie. assembly)

    You can't make money out of thin air forever.
     

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