Can the West Survive Trump?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by vrDrew, Jun 4, 2017.

  1. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #1
    Title of a must-read Andrew Sullivan article in New York Magazine. (No paywall)

    Sullivan asks the question as to whether or not the damage Trump has done is irreversible or irreparable. He also suggests that the faltering poll numbers for Teresa May's Tories in Britain, and the improbable triumph of centrist Macron in France might have something to do with a backlash against both Brexit and Trump.

    Sullivan asks the question that should be on everyone's mind. Millions of Americans losing their health insurance will be a tragedy. But the breakdown of the international order that has brought seventy years of peaceful prosperity to Western Europe and North America, while effectively keeping authoritarianism at bay would be a cataclysm of unimaginable proportions. Comparable to the effects of runaway global warming - just much more likely to arrive on our doorstep during our lifetimes, rather than those of our children.
     
  2. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #2
    I think we were actually pretty broken pre Trump and largely he has highlighted existing problems.
     
  3. jkcerda Suspended

    jkcerda

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    #3
    OMG, no you won't survive, QUICK go to France where they are offering your refuge, no time to waste , do it NOW.........
     
  4. Gutwrench macrumors 65816

    Gutwrench

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    #4
    Yes. Next question?
     
  5. ibookg409 Suspended

    ibookg409

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    #5
    The west will survive Trump. I think the bigger question is will the west survive Islamic Terror.
     
  6. jkcerda Suspended

    jkcerda

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    #6
    we have a chance to get rid of liberals and here you are making that difficult

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  7. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #7
    Yes.
     
  8. Gutwrench macrumors 65816

    Gutwrench

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    #8
    I think the answer to that is yes too...in the the short term. Will the west survive the touchy-feely idealistic left? No. The left bribes the population with their own money. And so we go. I'll be selfishly dead long before then though.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 4, 2017 ---
    See above vato.
     
  9. jpietrzak8 macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #9
    Oh sure! ISIS is really only attacking us with conventional forces; they will eventually be crushed. Trump, on the other hand, is setting us up to be the fall guy in the first real Atomic war. That'll be the one where you've gotta wonder if the West will survive.
     
  10. jkcerda Suspended

    jkcerda

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    #10
    no time to waste,, GO before that happens :D
     
  11. ibookg409 Suspended

    ibookg409

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    #11
    Liberals aren't going to leave. They never had it so good.
     
  12. jkcerda Suspended

    jkcerda

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    #12
    party pooper

    [​IMG]
     
  13. vrDrew thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #13
    I don't think you understand. There is no escaping the consequences of such a breakdown anywhere.

    Alliances work because of mutual respect and trust, and a commitment to shared ideals. It is the reason that Britain's security and police services share their information on terrorist threats with US intelligence and law enforcement agencies. It's the reason international arrest warrants let the FBI apprehend US murderers and child abusers in Greece and Thailand.

    Alliances and international trade work because they are not "zero-sum" transactions. One country's gain is not another country's loss. Trump and his minions see the world on a transactional basis. But that is not how the world works.

    Look at the military and intelligence relationship the US has with Australia, for example. The US has a small contingent of Marine Corps troops stationed there, as well as numerous satellite-tracking stations. But both countries benefit from that relationship. The US military and intelligence community get essentially free use of a base in the Southwest Pacific that provides capabilities that will difficult or impossible to duplicate by any other means. And Australia benefits from the implied protection of the US military. But its more than just military cooperation. It's the reason US tax cheats and drug kingpins can't flee to Australia. Its the reason contracts signed in New York or Berlin are legally enforceable in Brisbane or Melbourne.

    And Trump's small-minded "business" approach to international relations threatens to undo all that. Expecting to be paid in full for every service, favor and courtesy one nation extends to another would ultimately lead to catastrophe. If someone's ex-spouse kidnaps their children and takes them to Tennessee or Florida, the courts and police in those Jurisdictions don't expect to be paid to enforce the rulings of courts in Wisconsin or California. But if Trump breaks the international order of cooperation then fugitives from US justice of every description may well find refuge in all sorts of nations whose trust Donald Trump has broken.
     
  14. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #14
    Everyone realises Trump is a moron and will ignore him as long as public opinion stays against him. I doubt he will win reelection.
     
  15. jkcerda Suspended

    jkcerda

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    #15
    trump 2020. he is the only way to break the alliance and best way to end the endless wars :D
     
  16. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #16
    I disagree. People like Corbyn agree with you as well. And they have gained in the polls. Let's see on Friday.
     
  17. Gutwrench macrumors 65816

    Gutwrench

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    #17
    I doubt Trump cares about the next election because I don't think he will run.

    Republicans? They're in a pickle.
     
  18. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #18
    Republicans are ****ed anyway in the 2020s.
     
  19. jkcerda Suspended

    jkcerda

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    #19
    that's what they thought when trump won the primaries and they got rewarded with house & senate......
     
  20. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #20
    I seem to recall plenty of people who said that about the 2016 election. How did that turn out?
    --- Post Merged, Jun 4, 2017 ---
    I think you should change your username, @vrDrew. Here is a new avatar to go with it...

    cl.jpg
     
  21. yaxomoxay macrumors 68000

    yaxomoxay

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    #21
    You mean like Kennedy except that on the other side they had about a couple thousand nukes instead of failing missiles like NK?
    --- Post Merged, Jun 4, 2017 ---
    They promised after the elections. They are Still here.
     
  22. ibookg409 Suspended

    ibookg409

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    #22
    Right? There was that whole list of celebrity leftist nobody's that promised to leave if Trump was elected.
     
  23. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #23
    Trump, or Bannon via Trump, is setting us up to destroy ourselves by encouraging our mistrust of everyone else, everyone else's motives, everyone else's agenda, mistrust of perceived unfair advantages, mistrust of our own faith in proffered solutions to problems. All while suggesting that the way to make America great again is take the fetters off anything and everything that's keeping rich Americans from getting richer.

    There used to be some commandment about not coveting thy neighbor's ass... but asses became passé and more generalized coveting --or perhaps covfefe-- appears to have become the new commandment.

    And here I thought the new commandment was that we should love one another. Someone's on the wrong page and I hope it's Trump and his ilk.

    The one good thing seems to be that a lot of the rest of the world thinks Trump's on the wrong page too. He seems more than a little crazy but he's possibly still capable of adapting to reality in the interests of self-preservation. With luck we'll be preserved as well, and I don't mean like so many insects stuck forever in amber. I mean maybe he'll come around to a less isolationist attitude. Maybe allow his secretaries of state and defense, who seem fairly sane, patch up a few relationships, so we can stumble on through what remains of his administration without so much drama. Otherwise we should legally remove him, using remedies the Constitution provides, because this guy is one of the ones that paperwork was designed for.
     
  24. vrDrew thread starter macrumors 65816

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    #24
    Adding a little emoji doesn't add any credibility to your delusional assertion.

    The problem with your theory is this: There is nothing about Donald Trump's rhetoric, policies, and appointments that would suggest any slowdown in the "endless wars" you keep maundering on about.

    There will still be endless wars. It's just that from now on the United States will be fighting them on our own.

    Trump has proposed a massive increase in our military spending. His generals are already talking about sending thousands of US troops back to Afghanistan. We are already conducting ground operations in Syria. He's got US troops fighting in Yemen. He's sending submarines (admittedly on a somewhat roundabout route) to threaten North Korea.

    Trump has appointed more generals to top Executive branch positions than any administration in history. He has simultaneously gutted the State Department of the sort of high-level diplomats that work to keep us out of armed conflicts. He has (quite literally) threatened to send the US military into Mexico.

    I struggle to see how this portends a future of Trumpian peace and diplomacy.
     

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