Can there be a better way to elegantly expose the fakes?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by 63dot, Feb 16, 2011.

  1. 63dot macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #1
    This article pretty much sums up what I have seen happen to the Tea Party in northern California.

    My personal friend organized the Tea Party in the S.F. Bay Area but was booted out by neo-cons and when he had written to me about this takeover, I was shocked. Originally being independent and largely left-Libertarian with an overall agenda of fiscal responsibility, this movement attempted to use some the best ideas from both major parties while having some of their own.

    Maybe this collapse of the original Tea Party only happened in the S.F. area because third party voices were already strong? Maybe there wasn't a big need for one since alternate thinkers sick of Democrat-Republican polarization were already Libertarian and Green and thriving in the region?

    I have seen fake Libertarians on this forum as well as over the internet, and I wasn't sure if the Tea Party morphing into a GOP standard bearer was my imagination or a well planned coup.

    Anyway, article says it all:


    http://politics.nashvillepost.com/2...d-sarah-palin-hijacks-the-tea-party-movement/
     
  2. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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  3. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #3
    If it was, it was brilliantly done and if the GOP's goal was to snatch the House of Representatives in 2010, they succeeded brilliantly. I won't put it past them, because the GOP knows they are outnumbered in America, but they level the playing field by having consistently better tactics and strategies.

    My good friend who organized the Tea Party was a major member of Code Pink, and there was no politician that he despised more than George W. Bush. When Obama continued the Bush war and occupation policies in Iraq and Afghanistan*, he set forth to take on both major parties.

    *- when I say Afghanistan, it's not about the US Army and Special Forces going after Bin Laden, but more of a way to nation build over there the way we did in Iraq against the will of virtually the entire world. Early on, by 2002, Special Forces had taken a backseat to the Bush policy of a more general occupation of the the country therefore alleviating the need groups such as Delta Force or Blue had in making the capture of Bin Laden any sort of priority. The attack on Iraq showed us it wasn't about terrorism at all, but about a massive military occupation first of Iraq and then of Afghanistan.

     
  4. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #4
    There was NOTHING 'left' or 'liberal' about the Tea Party from DAY 1. PERIOD. It was always a small-government, lower-spending, anti-'abandon the free market to save it', anti-bailout, movement. There are some blue-dog Democrats like 63Dot that tried to tie themselves to the movement in order 'ride the coat tails' of this conservative/libertarian groundswell... but it never amounted to much.
     
  5. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #5
    I agree with 5P. The Tea Party has always been a right wing concept. Conceived and funded by Koch.

    Now, the Libertarians are a different story.
     
  6. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #6
    Big-name republicans like the Kochs, Freedom Works, etc. attached themselves to the movement MUCH later on in the process after the grassroots had built the movement into something large enough to garner their attention. Rick Santelli's famous rant is generally considered to be the 'beginning' of the movement... but I do see how it would benefit you to paint the Tea Party as a 'corporate' affair. The facts are frankly not on your side. That being said, I'm glad these organizations are now involved so that they can help people organize and grow. I just want them to keep their neo-con tendencies at bay so the true Republican alternative conservative/libertarian message can continue to play the major role.
     
  7. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #7
    No, the Kochs conceived the idea years ago. They've been pulling the strings in the background for this for quite awhile. It never caught on, but the time was finally right. It never was a grassroots movement.
     
  8. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #8
    The tea party is nothing more than a way of rebranding the republican party to appeal to people who would never otherwise vote for a party that actually expanded government to historic levels. It was a way of magically distancing themselves from the "Republicans" that ran up trillions upon trillions of dollars of debt, and a way to scare people into believing that Democrats were the party of fiscal irresponsibility.

    It was also a proxy for the right to attract the radicals who are likely to vote on issues like homophobia, racism, and abortion. Issues that haven't actually been pushed by the right other than as a method of attracting a certain type of voter.

    Anyone who truly believed in the concepts pushed by the tea party would not vote for Republicans. Smaller government? Really? Just look at what the Republicans have done and compare it to the Democrats. There is NO comparison. Republicans are fiscally irresponsible, and have been for decades. What is the "worst" social rogram? Social Security? It's funded for years into the future and far more safe than the stock market, and that's without needed increases in tax rates. Medicare? Far more efficient and cost effective than the private system and just about universally used by everyone who is eligible.

    I like the idea of a third party that actually would push for more libertarian views and more fiscal responsibility. I'd support it. It sure as heck isn't the tea party.
     
  9. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #9
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Dog_Coalition

    Excuse me, but how does a west coast minority like myself exactly fit into a socially conservative group of southerners??

    I voted for Green and left-leaning Libertarians now for five years, I am more educated than the average folk, and I often think Obama's war policy looks too much like W's failed war policies.

    Good luck in painting me blue. And a few key original Blue Dogs became GOP members which I would never do.:p

    Anyway, the opening post is probably best for you to answer. Read the link in post #1 and tell me where you don't fit in perfectly with the premise of the article. I am not saying you are immoral, and if anything, you and the GOP who thinks like you in the coup of the Tea Party pulled off a brilliant move. I only wish liberals were this strategic.
     
  10. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #10
    Linky? This should be rich.
     
  11. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #11
    You can't just redefine things to fit your preconceived worldview. Blue Dogs aren't socially conservative, they're fiscally conservative. Like you, they support things like Obamacare, welfare, social security... and like you they simultaneously support 'fiscal conservatism.' You, my friend, are a Blue Dog Democrat. Through and through.

    From your wikipedia link:
     
  12. mcrain, Feb 16, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011

    mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #12
    Like I said, the tea party is the fringe magnet in the GOP's kitchen.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #13
    That's like the weakest and most pointless infographic I've ever seen. Basically we now know that they come from a rich family, got more rich by investing in oil businesses, gave funds to their favorite political party and organizations who they see as beneficial to society. So... what's the point? They seem like good guys to me? Is your whole thing against them that they're rich and give some of that wealth to groups you disagree with? REALLY?

    And how about that Tea Party connection? Is your point that they started Freedom Works and now after the Tea Party got big enough to give a damn about Freedom Works decided to become part of the tea party and help organize/fund some of its events? Is that your point? Is it your point that they latched on to a groundswell grassroots conservative libertarian movement and through their charitable giving to the movement they've been able to control certain aspects of how it works/operates?

    Hardly something worthy of your scorn, and hardly something worthy of saying 'the Kochs started the Tea Party'. A laughable failed attempt to belittle the Tea Party Movement. ;)

    BTW, I'd like to personally thank David H. Koch for his financial support of NOVA on PBS... love that show.
     
  14. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #14
    That's rich coming from you of all people. Tell me again what you think a liberal is? :rolleyes:
     
  15. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #15
    Thanks for adding your substantive analysis to the conversation. I was worried you'd be posting nothing more than yet another Red Herring.
     
  16. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #16
    Oh, Gosh. How many times do I have to post those sources that you obviously never read?
     
  17. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #17
    Nothing to see here, move along...
     
  18. NT1440 macrumors G4

    NT1440

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    #18
    I'm just sick of you making these statements about people not doing something, then turning around and CONSTANTLY doing the same damn thing. I believe there is a word for it.

    As for the Koch/Tea Party links, why should I even bother to comment, you've shown time and again in these forums that if anything conflicts with your views, you completely dismiss it, or better yet you rant against it (most of the time some completely skewed small segment) for paragraphs.

    You'd think someone that holds the "values" of this nation so dearly you'd have a problem with two Supreme Court justices attending Koch political strategy meetings, mere months before the hugely controversial Citizens United case (a clear cut example of judicial activism you supposedly hate). You constantly rant about how its the government that enables big business to abuse the system, you'd think you'd have a major issue with this clear conflict of interest.

    I think I'm finally about to use the ignore list for the first time, because I am truly sick and tired of this crap.
     
  19. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #19
    I agree. Nothing to see here. A couple of rich guys who give to political causes/organizations that share their same worldview. What a scandal! ;)

    Good thing no rich liberals give to causes, otherwise we'd have an epidemic on our hands! :D
     
  20. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #20
    At least you finally agree that those rich guys gave to the political causes/organizations that share their worldview, and thus helped create the tea party. Case closed.
     
  21. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #21
    When was it ever in doubt? They helped GROW the tea party, not CREATE it. Like I said originally, they weren't interested until it was big enough to capture their attention... then they latched on. Similarly to how big unions and liberal groups latched on to the Obama campaign. Did they CREATE the Obama campaign? No.
     
  22. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #22
    You didn't read the article did you?
     
  23. 63dot, Feb 16, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011

    63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #23
    I don't think fivepoint read the article in the first post.

    I want to see how anybody can equate neo-conservatism and Ronald Reagan with the Tea Party movement in its earliest incarnation.

    The Tea Party is nothing more than a GOP tool these days. The Tea Party posed a real threat to the GOP and the GOP stamped it out into a clone of the GOP platform. From a non-interested observer, they would consider this a masterful move not unlike MJ hitting six consecutive 3-pointers in one game. If anybody thinks Sarah Palin is something other than a very loyal Republican, they have to actually read her book, see her on TV, and listen to both supporters and detractors.

    While I hope it doesn't happen, Sarah Palin could be our next president and she will be a Republican standard bearer no different than had John McCain won or Bob Dole had won. While some who don't like the GOP as usual candidates and prefer to like Ron Paul, there is no way Sarah Palin will be that type of maverick. Palin could be a carbon copy of George W. Bush.

    In a years time, Palin will be far more polished, have a top of the line staff, appear moderate by the time election time comes along if she's the GOP nominee, and even be considered a good speech maker and do it in a way not to offend many people. She could then capture the middle and possibly win back Ohio, NC, and Florida from the Democrats who took those close states in 2008.

    Just like defense wins football games, capturing the middle in a general election is the best type of defense to have. For offense, attend a few party events and talk to the "base". But to protect your butt, speak in an ambiguous way no to alienate those in the middle who don't feel comfortable with hard liners from either major party.

    In 2008, imho, John McCain wasn't really all that bad at speaking to the middle, it's just that president Obama did a better job. In one of the first descriptions of then senator Obama, he was characterized as "purple" and it's the first time I had ever heard of him or the term "purple" as opposed to plain red or blue. He had remade himself from a leftist within the democratic party (if his voting record is to say anything) to one who spoke a line more in the political middle. This is what Clinton did very well and it's what Reagan did better than anybody. To this day, I am not stunned when I hear a serious detractor of W, and of the GOP, somehow remember Ronny in a good light and think of him as one who was in the center. No, Reagan was not in the center, but because of his skills of compromise with Tip O'Neil, some may say he was a moderate. Personally, I think the Congress was so democratic, Ronny had to comply. Anyway, we will never know.
     
  24. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

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    #24
    No one said it was a scandal. What's interesting is the Koch brothers went out of their way to hide their role in the Tea Party. It was probably before your time, but they did the same thing with Citizens for a Sound Economy. It was also presented to the public as a grassroots movement before it was learned that they were behind it. That group later split into FreedomWorks and AFP. The Kochs have been brewing this tea for decades.
     
  25. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #25
    I didn't know it goes back that far. I thought that the current movement, pre-GOP, was grassroots and independent. It certainly seemed that way and not favoring either major party.

    Anyway, whatever the origins, TP is now GOP (and proud of it).
     

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