Can we please kill off ISIS already?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Merkava_4, Aug 16, 2015.

  1. Merkava_4 macrumors 6502a

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    #1
    Reading the Kayla Mueller story, I'm left feeling sad, angry, and frustrated that such evilness in this world is allowed to continue. The members of ISIS are horrid people that should be eradicated from the face of the Earth and the sooner the better.
     
  2. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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  3. noisycats macrumors 6502a

    noisycats

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    #3
    I think nearly everyone wants ISIS eradicated. The devil is in the details...
     
  4. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

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    #4
    After ISIS, it's just another. It's like a store that's been around for decades and changes it's name and management every 6 years.
     
  5. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #5
    Horrific and evil as ISIL is, I think any honest assessment has to acknowledge the following:

    1) The rise of ISIL is a direct result of the decision of the United States to invade Iraq in 2003, the following decade-long war of occupation, and the chaos and decimation of Iraqi society that followed. Like it or not, the United States - and Britain - bear a great deal of responsibility for the re-igniting of sectarian passions between Sunni and Shiite communities in the region.

    Reckless actions have unintended consequences. By getting rid of one evil (Saddam Hussein) we ended up unleashing one that is, arguably, worse. Remember that the next time Bibi Netanyahu, Scott Walker, Ted Cruz or one of the other criminal morons yakking on Fox News starts talking about Iran.

    2) Bad as ISIL is, they pose no credible threat to the United States, nor to Western Europe. ISIL's aims are the creation of a Sunni Caliphate in the eastern Mediterranean. They have not yet, nor have they in the future, either plans or capabilities to carry out operations in either the US or Europe itself.

    3) Mediaeval as some of their actions may appear, it is quite evident that people within ISIL are remarkably adept at using 21st century technology to further their aims. The videos of ISIL beheading and otherwise murdering captives are a far cry from Osama bin Laden's grainy VCR tapes. ISIL uses the internet to distribute these gory recruitment videos to a worldwide audience (reaching young people as far away as Mississippi). ISIL is also abetted in this task by cable news networks - FOX specifically - which make the questionable choice of showing most or all of their horror films, as part of their campaign of anti-Muslim hysteria designed to frighten old white people in the United States. To quote from an outstanding Baffler article on the subject:

    ISIL is indeed a menace. But it is one that was created by reckless idiots lying on American cable news channels. In much the same way as they are doing now. So be very careful about what you wish for. Because I guarantee you, the results will only be worse.
     
  6. FieldingMellish Suspended

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    #6
    22 words: My take is far shorter than Drew's. ISIS filled a vacuum left by Obama pulling out the troops to score points with the left, then Obama fiddled while ISIS grew.

    A PBS frontline report places the blame on President Obama and on the former Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki.

    The Times:
    Reported by Martin Smith, the hourlong program takes the story of this brutal, ever-growing militant group back to the final departure of American troops from Iraq in 2011. It’s a dense, fast-moving narrative focused on the failure of the Shiite-led Iraqi government to share power with the Sunni minority and the inaction of the United States while Sunni militants exploited the situation for their own gain.


    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/10/2...pbs-frontline-documentary.html?referrer=&_r=0
     
  7. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #7
    How long should America have stayed in Iraq?
     
  8. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #8
    You both miss the main point, the US should have under NO circumstances invaded Iraq in 2003.

    To answer the OP original question, IMO much of the poster righteous indignation is only because the victim was a US citizen, ISIS has been doing human right abuses everyday for months.
     
  9. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #9
    Let's just nip this in the bud: American troops left Iraq under the terms of an agreement entered into between the Iraqi government and President George W. Bush. President Obama requested, repeatedly, for the Iraqi government to agree to a modification of that document that would have allowed greater US military presence in Iraq. The Iraqi government refused to agree to terms acceptable to the US military. At which point we could have invaded Iraq again.

    Doubtless there have been mistakes made in US policy in the middle east ver the past six years. But lets not lose sight of the fundamental chaos unleashed on the region by Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush & Company.
     
  10. FieldingMellish Suspended

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    #10
    Wow, tongues are wagging about the past so as to relieve Obama and Maliki of any blame for the start and rise of ISIS.

    Do we excuse and pardon an arsonist, choosing to lay blame at the feet of those cavemen who were the first to start fires? No. You go after the arsonist who lit up the situation. Obama and Maliki are to blame for ISIS.

    I agree with the NY Times assessment and as evidenced in the PBS Frontline expose.
     
  11. juanm, Aug 16, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2015

    juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #11
    Syria has been a weird mix of religions and cultures for a long time, kept together with unresolved issues by the authoritarian rule of Bashar Al Assad. Even within the army, there was a huge tension growing for a long time.

    When, during the arab spring 2011 protests Assad chose to use live bullets against demonstrators, he opened Pandora's box and crystallised all the tensions. A few -and then many- in his army decided to disobey the order of killing civilians and became defectors (they'd be later known as Free Syrian Army). With a weak army and a past of government abuse, chaos ensued, and a few armed groups saw an opportunity and started emerging and organising.

    One of these groups was ISIS (it's better to call them Daesh, they hate it). Make no mistake, we speak a lot of ISIS because they are very good at PR, but there are others: the Al Nusra Front (which is the Syrian branch of Al Qaeda) comes to mind, but there are many others.

    Facing psychopathic terrorists on the loose, and an army protecting Assad's interests only, in many places civilians had to create their own militias to fight ISIS and its many allies/variants (honestly, I've never seen a conflict with as many parties involved as the Syrian Civil War.). The most successful have been the US-backed Kurdish militias, the YPG (men) and YPJ (women) who not only have been successful at stopping ISIS, they have managed to gain back the north of the country, and they are now trying to push further south towards ISIS' heart. Since there are no boots on the ground, the US is helping the YPG with air assistance (meaning, the YPG tells the USAF where to drop the bombs, and then, they take care of the fighting). I posted an article about this a few days ago.

    The problem is, for logistics, it's important to be able to use Turkey's air base, but Turkey's own authoritarian islamist leader, Erdogan hates Kurds more than he hates ISIS (he actually doesn't dislike ISIS)... And Turkey is a NATO member (it goes back to the cold war) and at least on paper, an US ally. So now the US's best ally against ISIS is an enemy of its supposed ally.

    I can sum up the situation with one fact: since Turkey finally decided to "help" the US in the fight against ISIS with bombing raids, they have flown only 3 (three) sorties against ISIS but almost 300 (three HUNDRED) sorties against the Kurds.

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/senio...220.html?soc_src=mediacontentstory&soc_trk=tw

    Also, it's a well known documented fact that
    • wounded ISIS operatives get treated in Turkey in hospitals on the border.
    • This week, six kurds (anti ISIS fighters) were wounded and taken over to Turkey, only for Turkey to hand them to Al Nusra Front (Al Qaeda) and by now they have probably been executed or worse.
    • ISIS has been using the Syrian-Turkey border to resupply, and Turkey's been turning a blind eye.
    ISIS has a huge flow of money coming through its oil sales. It wouldn't surprise me if at least some of that oil is being sold with Turkey as an intermediary. It would certainly explain why Turkey has been adamant in their push for a corridor between Turkey and ISIS controlled regions. Officially, it's supposed to allow civilian refugees to escape ISIS... yeah right... :rolleyes:

    Without that corridor (the zone that separates the small yellow zone from the large yellow zone) the kurds (yellow) would soon completely control the Turkey-Syrian border, effectively preventing ISIS (in black) from receiving help through there. Turkey doesn't want that.

    [​IMG]
     
  12. FieldingMellish Suspended

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  13. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #13
    Please stop using absurd analogies.

    A great deal of blame for the rise of ISIS can be laid on former Iraqi President al Maliki, and especially his refusal to build a coalition that included Sunnis. But it is also worth noting that while Maliki was amenable to Obama's plan to keep a residual force in Iraq, the Iraqi parliament refused to do so under terms whereby US troops would be immune to Iraqi justice (but not US military justice) if they committed crimes there.

    Why would the Iraqi parliament refuse to agree to a Statement of Forces Agreement like that? Can you think of any reasons?

    Look, horrific as it might be to watch ISIS burn a Jordanian pilot alive; think about what people would be saying if ISIS was killing half a dozen US troops each month. And putting out videos celebrating that fact.

    Because that is what would have happened if we had kept any force in Iraq smaller than ~ 30,000 troops. And by the time US forces left Iraq; there is no way the American people would have accepted that level of forces. Let alone the continual drumbeat of horrible deaths and injuries.

    ISIS is a tragedy. But its not worth killing another thousand Americans over. Its not worth spending another trillion dollars over. It wasn't in 2011. And it sure as heck isn't now.

    So: Next time you are tempted to come up with a childish analogy, do this instead: Try thinking through what the alternative would have been.
     
  14. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #14
    Me? I don't want a Syria invasion. The first objective to beat ISIS should be to prevent them from receiving help from outside (cutting their Turkey connection). Then, help moderate rebels (not only the kurds) with assistance (air strikes, intelligence) so that they suffer small losses when they advance. Once the more extremists groups (ISIS, Al Nusra and a few others) have been defeated, sit down and negotiate.

    As much as I'd like Assad to go (watch this video to see how he bombs civilians) for better of for worse, he still represents a good chunk of the syrian population.


    People need to understand that the problem is larger than "killing off ISIS because they raped one american aid worker", and that there are many, many players in this war. Kill off Isis (what does that mean, anyway, killing Baghdadi?) and their fighters will flock to Al Nusra within days. I could spend the day researching, writing, and quoting, and it wouldn't cover but a small part of the conflict.
     
  15. FieldingMellish Suspended

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    #15
    Thread title needs to change to “Can we kill off any doubt that Obama and Maliki led to the rise of ISIS and that Obama allowed ISIS to fester to it’s current status?”

    EARLY ON, ISIS WAS A CUB - Left to fester, it became a LION. Under President Obama’s watch.

    Come to think of it, here is a dramatization posted in the NY Times of the Hair Apparent’s political ad - 30 second must-see smackdown skewering Obama on this very topic.

    http://www.nytimes.com/politics/fir...s-obama-playing-golf-with-isis-violence/?_r=0
     
  16. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #16
    Sorry, I wasn't referring to your post, which raised some valid and important points. I was referring to the one talking about cavemen and arsonists. And later added on lions to keep the metaphors even more mixed up.
     
  17. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #17
    Oh, alright. No matter what, for him the blame is on Obama (who admittedly is not managing very well the whole "Turkey friend or foe" situation). Me, if anything, I'd blame the Bush administration who invaded not one but two countries without a long term plan. Obama should have taken other steps to withdraw from the region, yes.
     
  18. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #18
    We will need to wait for a republican to get elected before we can take Islamic radicalism at face value. The current president ***** his drawers anytime he might have to mention terrorism, Isis, covering anything related to Muslims doing anything bad due to an outdated, violent, sexist religion running rampant in the area.
     
  19. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #19
    What are you proposing?
     
  20. throAU macrumors 601

    throAU

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  21. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #21
    Yeah I'm sure the Republicans will come in and fix it right up just like they did the last few times! Republicans ALWAYS bring about world peace.

    Are the truffle fries good in the parallel universe you're from?
     
  22. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

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    #22
    Arm the kurds directly and lead a coalition of countries to eradicate ISIS completely.
     
  23. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #23
    But the Kurds are in direct conflict with Turkey. A NATO member and an avowed ally of the United States. From the perspective of the Government in Ankara most Kurdish armed groups
    would count as terrorists or insurgents.

    Turkey is a moderate, relatively stable, majority Muslim democracy. One that provided a military bases and a bulwark against the Soviet Union throughout pretty much the entire Cold War.

    Do you think it is a wise and prudent course to take actions that would ultimately destabilize a country like that?
     
  24. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #24
    Don't take this as me critizing your post or you...
    Gosh, this could be a good launch point for a discussion about why terrorist organizations thrive in the Middle East beyond "we need to eradicate the vermin". Are Middle Easterners just less tolerant and blood thirsty than your average human being?
     
  25. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #25


    What would an Iraqi or Egyptian say about Europeans, in 1945, after having watched that continent slaughter 30+ million of its inhabitants in the course of two wars in the space thirty years?

    The Middle East is going through the political, social, economic, and - yes - religious upheavals that resulted from the breakup of the Ottoman Empire; the meddling of "great powers" - from Britain and France to the US and former Soviet Union; the re-emergence of Islamism as a political force; and the torrent of unearned wealth that spews into the region from oil. To say nothing of the seizure of the land of Palestine and expulsion of roughly a half million Palestinians by the founding of the State of Israel. (An event, most Arabs would say, that was prompted by Europe and America's failure to deal humanely with their Jewish population.)

    Jewish Communities existed in places like Syria, Iraq, and Iran for a thousand years. More or less peacefully and tolerated by their Arab and later Muslim neighbors. Arab culture, trade, science, and art were flourishing at a time when Europeans were slaughtering each other wholesale and living in mud and wattle huts.

    So suggesting that the Arab or Muslim person is genetically, historically, religiously, or racially inclined to violence would tend to overlook the actual history of the last millennia.

    One last statistic to ponder over this Sunday morning. Since 9/11/2001 the number of American civilians killed by Islamic terrorists is probably under 200. In the same period of time ordinary Americans have murdered probably a quarter million of their fellow citizens. Roughly 5000 Americans have been killed (in various degrees of justification) by their own police officers.

    You tell me what the bigger problem is.
     

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