Canadian judge says father can't discipline his child

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by CorvusCamenarum, Jun 19, 2008.

  1. CorvusCamenarum macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    #1
    Story here

    I have successfully been rendered speechless.
     
  2. Gray-Wolf macrumors 68030

    Gray-Wolf

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2008
    Location:
    Pandora, Home Tree
    #2
    It's under appeal, and I hope it gets over ridden. The government says I can't punish my child, they will be given that child to raise and see how long they keep the child. :mad:
     
  3. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #3
    Clearly unwarranted interference, but at the same time, if the parents have been engaged in a legal battle ever since the girl was two, they have only themselves to blame if she sees the courts as the natural place to settle family disagreements.
     
  4. CorvusCamenarum thread starter macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    #4
    It would certainly shed a lot of light if we knew from whom/where the girl got the idea to run to the courts.

    If this isn't overturned, the precedent it sets is a very scary one for anyone with kids either now or in the future. It basically gives the state the power to enter your home and tell you how and when you may discipline your children, even in the absence of any wrongdoing. How very Orwellian.

    Then again, Canada also wants to criminalize spanking.
     
  5. SMM macrumors 65816

    SMM

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2006
    Location:
    Tiger Mountain - WA State
    #5
    Disciplining children, and abusing them are completely different. The government needs to get out of the business of telling parents how to raise their children. My parents had no cruelty in them. However, on occasion, they "lowered the boom" on me. I always deserved it, and got away with far more than I ever was caught for.
     
  6. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    #6
    No, they're not. I was severely beaten as a child, and in today's climate, it would been seen as abuse. It wasn't then.
     
  7. arkitect macrumors 601

    arkitect

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2005
    Location:
    Bath, United Kingdom
    #7
    Discipline=abuse?

    Caveat: Speaking only for myself, and not wanting to make light of other people's experiences…

    I was caned at school pretty regularly — some might even say severely — but that had mostly to do with me mixing up oblatives and optatives… :eek:

    I cannot say I feel as if I was abused.
    But then again that was the mid-70s :)eek:) and perhaps I need to go and get therapy to be made to feel that I had been abused…

    If my parents had regularly punched me up for being gay and locked me in a cellar, well that would have been abuse.
    Giving me a few slaps — if they could catch me — for setting fire to the compost heap… of course I deserved it.
    But it taught me. ;) (to be more careful about being found out)
     
  8. candan9019 macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Location:
    Ontario-> Louisiana-> Colorado-> Ontario
    #8
    So this is an example of the way Canada is? What about politicians in the States policing TV and video games as a way of the government doing a parents job.

    We have extreme Liberal nuts and extreme Conservative nuts in this country just like the US, It's not indicative of how Canada is messed up compared to the US.

    Sorry if that's not the way you meant it but I get kinda touchy with the way Americans view Canada.
     
  9. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #9
    Um, I'm not sure what "lowering the boom" means, but I don't think SMM was necessarily talking about physical discipline at all. Anyway, I think there's a world of difference between a premeditated beating and a "clip round the ear".
     
  10. CorvusCamenarum thread starter macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    #10
    The first part of that post was far more important than the bit you quoted. Taken together, though, it shows a pattern of government usurping parental authority. What's next, Junior suing mommy and daddy for more pocket money?

    Had I wanted to be sensationalist, I would have dug up the story from last year of the Canadian boy with three legal parents.
     
  11. candan9019 macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Location:
    Ontario-> Louisiana-> Colorado-> Ontario
    #11
    My point was just that it's not only a problem here. These are important issues but they are not an example of an entire country as a whole. There are plenty of instances where government is getting involved in parenting in other countries as well.

    I do agree with you though, It's amazing that some of these judges are allowed to pass these decisions. But I wonder what kind of parents these kids have to have such a lack of respect.
     
  12. Evangelion macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2005
    #12
    So, what exactly does "disciplining" mean here? Slapping? Spanking? I for one don't understand this... I mean, if you slap someone, that's assault and wrong. If you slap your child, then it's suddently "disciplining" and OK?

    Violence is never the answer. If you can't raise your child without resorting to violence, maybe you should reconsider your options as a parent? You CAN discipline a child without resorting to violence.

    "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent"
     
  13. marbles macrumors 68000

    marbles

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Location:
    EU mostly
    #13

    I couldn't have said it better my self .

    Although I do get frustrated with my children I have never hit them ....I just go outside , jump up & down then pull all my hair out :)
     
  14. CorvusCamenarum thread starter macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    #14
    If you'd read the article instead skipping straight to the soapboxing, you'd see the father grounded the whiny brat of a girl and decided she couldn't go on her upcoming school trip. A spanking-free and hippie-approved form of discipline that obviously worked incredibly well.

    Spanking does not always equal violence or abuse.
     
  15. Evangelion macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2005
    #15
    I read the quoted text, I did not read the article itself. If it was merely grounding and such, then the judge is obviously way off-base

    Spanking is violence. You are physically hurting the child, you are causing him pain. Pray-tell, what exactly is the difference between "spanking" and "violence"?

    Why should you be allowed to hit your child, when you are not allowed to hit your fellow man? Because "it's for the childs own good?". Well, someone could say that some dude is such a dickhead that beating him up is for his own good. But it's still not allowed.

    We are not allowed to hit people who are capable of defending themselves, yet we should be allowed to use physical violence towards people who are dependent on us and who are incapable of defending themselves? Some people are downright sick.
     
  16. marbles macrumors 68000

    marbles

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2008
    Location:
    EU mostly
    #16
    snippet...
    When ?

    I have thought & thought about this but cannot think of one single instance when spanking could not be considered violence .

    .
    Spanking IS violence ... end of !
     
  17. CorvusCamenarum thread starter macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    #17
    Intent. Aiming to correct behavior and aiming to be a sadistic bastard are two very different things. I've been on the receiving end of both sides of it, so I think I'm reasonably qualified to tell the difference. If I actually had to quantify it as it were, I'd probably draw the line physically at bruising and temporally at the pre-teen stage, around 12 or so. And before you ask the corner case, no I don't advocate figuring out the maximum amount of pops before bruising occurs and doing that every time or some other such nonsense.

    You're responsible for your child. Part of that responsibility includes teaching them how to behave themselves. Correcting unacceptable behavior goes along with that. In order for discipline to properly work it needs to be swift, consistent, and sufficiently unpleasant that the next time Junior thinks about doing something he shouldn't do, he'll know what will happen if he does. This isn't much different from how it is in the adult world, except in stead of being swatted on the behind, you get an adult-sized time-out, i.e. jail, and judging by rates of recidivism, that really works wonders. By way of comparison, you're not responsible for Mr. Dickhead's behavior.

    You're still equating spanking with violence. Let's work on that. Punishment is supposed to be exactly that, not sitting on a stool for 5 minutes and getting a hug and a cookie and talking about your feelings.
     
  18. Evangelion macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2005
    #18
    So, if I punch you in the face, it's perfectly OK if my "intent" was to "improve your behavior"? Yeah, good luck with that.

    And for the child, those two can manifest in identical ways.

    So, the younger the child is, the more acceptable it is to beat him? I guess that as the kid gets older, he becomes physically able to defend himself, and we can't have that, right?

    And you can do that without beating him. If you need to resort to violence, you have failed as a parent.

    That can be achieved without violence.

    And that can be achieved without violence. And shouldn't the child be raised in such way that he will not do bad things because he knows that they are wrong, instead of conditioning him to not do bad things because of threat of violence? In the first case, you teach him morality, in the second, you teach him to huddle in the corner in fear.

    Spanking is, by and large, allowed in USA. And looking at the number of inmates in USA, I would say that your method of educating your children has failed spectacularly.

    Because that's what it is. What exactly is the difference if you hit a child when compared to me hitting you?

    Yeah, punishment should be about beating your kids in to submission, right?
     
  19. CorvusCamenarum thread starter macrumors 65816

    CorvusCamenarum

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2004
    Location:
    Birmingham, AL
    #19
    Since that's all you're going to do, I'm finished with this. This thread isn't about spanking anyway.
     
  20. Evangelion macrumors 68040

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2005
    #20
    So I assume that you are unable to provide any tangible examples on how violence and spanking are different? I take that as an admission of defeat.

    Have fun beating your kids.
     
  21. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2008
    Location:
    On tenterhooks
    #21
    Now it is.

    Some people present obviously still have issues from childhood they wish to discard.

    Anyway, perhaps the "judge" would be open to adoption?? :rolleyes:

    The mother in this scenario sounds like quite a piece of work. ;)
     

Share This Page