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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by zimv20, Oct 24, 2005.
If the guilty are brought to justice, my faith will be restored.
Valeries identity was leaked, at least one person is guilty.
I would like to know who informed the leaker(s) as well, as they are just culpable.
Ok, my faith won't be restored entirely, but it will help a lot. There is a lot of other corruption to deal with as well. I hope that this sets a precedent for removing corruption from public positions of all levels.
I'm going nuts - I wish they'd get the indictments out already so I can tell if this story has legs. Until then, I will remain silent, like the Go-Gos.
Yikes. If this proves to be true, then it's the smoking gun, in the hands of the vice president -- and he'll be gone faster than you can say "Spiro Agnew."
there are legs. having watched mr fitzgerald in action in IL, he strikes me as a patient and thorough man. i've no doubt that if he needs more time to get it right, he'll convene another grand jury when the current one expires.
at this point, given how his investigation has expanded to include the falsification of the nigeria documents, i'll actually be a little surprised if he's got it all wrapped up before oct 28.
I don't know if it is an indication of anything or not, but the Administration has seemed paralyzed of late.
In fact, there seems to be very little coming out of the government lately.
Apart from some very negative reaction to a Supreme Court nominee, there is nothing else being presented.
Social Security reform has lost all steam, as well as most everything else the Administration had been working on a few months ago.
The Democrats seem to be staying the course, which is one that allows the Republicans to run riot with power and hang themselves.
Maybe those seasoned politicians realized something we didn't about the people who are so quiet of late.
Either way, they need to reverse their losing trend and reestablish some of the ideals that have fallen by the wayside.
Get 'im. Get 'im good.
The evil Dick Cheney , is anyone surprised? Im not. Its just funny that it took all these years to come out. Why didnt this stuff come out before the last elections?
A word of caution - in the UK we had an enquiry into the bull**** the Gov. span in the lead-up to war. There was months of speculation that it would be so damning of Blair & Co that it would bring down the Government.
Everyone said that the inspector, Lord Hutton, was a fair-minded, independent man who would stop at nothing to get to the truth.
When it was finally published, Blair was almost totally cleared (despite much seemingly damning evidence) and it was the BBC who came in for the most criticism.
Looks like Bush was lying when he said he would get to the bottom of this matter. He either didn't ask, or he knew -- or Cheney lied to him.
This just gets weirder. Tenet is claiming that he wasn't Cheney's source. And of course it's not illegal for Cheney to know or talk about this, but if he did talk about it to Libby with the intent that Libby go attack Wilson with that information all bets are off.
The big kicker seems to be Ashcroft recusing himself from the case AFTER the WH had already decided on a 'blame-the-media' strategy. They probably figured Ashcroft would quietly bury the case for them.
Ah well, Fitzmas is almost here.
From what I hear, all the evidence was gathered over a year ago. In fact, had Fitzgerald been a partisan hack as alleged he potentially could have indicted on the eve of the '04 elections.
The delay has been from uncooperative witnesses, which seems to have changed lately. With all the buzz, I'm thinking Fitzgerald almost has this wrapped up -- or at least is ready to move on to the post-indictment phase. Plus the rumor is that final letters have been sent to Rove and Libby (among others) that they are 'in serious legal jeopardy' as required by law. Some people are suggesting that there could be upwards of a dozen indictments.
It doesn't really matter where or from whom Cheney learned the name of Joe Wilson's wife. This is just a distraction. The issue is why he wanted to know, and how the information was used. He wanted to know so he could take revenge on Wilson, which he did, via Libby and Rove and a few willing and complicit members of the press. Could the conspiracy be any clearer at this point?
I'm beginning to think that Fitzgerald will have a good circumstantial case for bringing charges under the anti-outing law, against Libby at least, instead of just obstruction of justice or perjury. The only defense is a rather theoretical, legalistic one -- that Libby knew only that Plame was a CIA agent, but not that she was under cover.
since it's widely accepted( from the news shows i've seen) that the leaks are coming from rove/libby's lawyers...i can only assume that libby's lawyers are trying to throw the blame back at cheney by releasing this information. i can't wait for cheney's response. i'm really enjoying the drama.
The suspense is terrible... I hope it lasts.
Interesting. Yes, I've been wondering how long it will take for Fitzgerald to lose his reputation as a "patient and thorough man" and be demonized as a partisan hack, if he doesn't come up with the answer that everyone's expecting.
it's already started:
Yeah Hutichison's trial balloon on the theory that suddenly perjury isn't a big deal went over like the proverbial lead balloon. I don't think you'll see too many other righties making that claim anytime soon.
The Democratic leadership had a list of GOP quotes circa 7 years ago that showed how very serious Republicans considered perjury at that time out to the press within a few hours. (How hard could it have been?)
Defense after defense in this case has crumbled for the GOP (not unlike the Iraq war in that regard) and they are left clutching at straws because Fitzgerald, unlike Ken Starr, has not leaked the key details of his investigation all over the press. This is a WH who feels things are totally out of their control at this point.
Pre-trial pardons are pretty much a foregone conclusion at this point.
if that comes to pass, i suspect bush's numbers will fall even further.
Not nearly as far as they would if there were a series of trials....
There's always the "clinton was just a bad" defense, aka the Mark Rich gambit. That'll still work for the remaining true believers. Meanwhile, if Libby and Rove take a major hit, and Cheney by reference at least, then this administration will be effectively over as a fighting force. Cheney will hunker down even deeper into his secured location, and even the most loyal Republicans in congress will treat Bush & Co. like they're radioactive.
This doesn't seem to be the "smoking gun" for the Veeps involvement. Yes, it does tie him to one of the leakers as the source of the information, but it doesn't show that Cheney intended the leak to take place. That is going to extremely hard to prove unless some of the people involved (aka "conspirators") start turning over evidence. Or as has been rumored about two of Cheney's aides, have already flipped.
What this story does do is show perjury on the part of Libby, if reports of his grand jury statements that he got the information from a reporter are true, and it shows that Cheney lied to the American people when he said he knew nothing about Wilson, Plame, or who leaked. If he testified to Fitzgerald under oath, which seems to be an open question, he could be in trouble for that, but there doesn't look like there is enough credible evidence out in the public to know just yet. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping for a great big Fitzmas day present.
Not to get too far ahead of this story, but my biggest worry right now is that Bush will look to Kentucky's Gov. Fletcher as an example of how to handle all of these likely indictments. Bush is just arrogant enough to think he might get away with it, and he might be right.
When I speak of smoking guns, I mean it in political, not legal, terms. What appears to be solidified is Cheney's role in the conspiracy to retaliate against Wilson. I've thought all along that this was is the significant event, not the outing of Plame itself, which may or may not be illegal, depending on circumstances nobody seems to quite understand. The important thing here IMO is the dirty trick, the abuse of power by the White House.
Do you remember all of the wailing and moaning over the FBI files that found their way into the Clinton White House? It was taken as a serious matter, even though nobody could demonstrate that the information was abused in any way. Here we have an example of information which certainly should have been privileged if not secret leaking out to the press for the sole purpose of discrediting an administration critic. It's the Clinton FBI files incident with the abuse.
Bush will have to wait until after Nov. '06 to do it, and I doubt he'll be as ham-handed about it as Fletcher (who's pardon I understand was so broad as to absolve anyone remotely involved of anything they've ever done, and could be construed as absolving them of anything they do). If he pardons between now and Nov. '06 he risks election upheaval and a Congress that would be sorely tempted to impeach and try him if the GOP loses enough seats.