Cherry picking the issue of "sanctity of life"

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by 63dot, Nov 21, 2014.

  1. 63dot, Nov 21, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2014

    63dot macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #1
    Every now and then the call in talk show I listen to on ABC News Radio (KGO in my market) has the well tread issues of the death penalty and abortion. OK, political talk show, so what?

    But when a caller says they are pro-life and pro-death penalty they get blasted as being "inconsistent" even though many republicans have this pair of views. And when a caller chimes in and says they are pro-choice but anti-death penalty, a couple of the main hosts blast them, too even though this is a common stand of a lot of democrats.

    The main issue is you are either all in on life or not with no inbetween since they are both about the larger issue of sanctity of life. I used to disagree with combining them under such a bigger umbrella concept but I find myself being increasingly pro-life and anti-death penalty and finding this works for me. The only other way I can see it is pro-choice and pro-death penalty.

    Thoughts?

    I used to talk with a republican Catholic priest and he was staunchly pro-life and anti-death penalty because, well, the Bible said so. Taking the whole book into context, I am not sure that's what it says. If you just read the red letters of Jesus' writings, then yes that's what it says which was part of why the cultures of that time wanted him dead. Jesus did not often fit with what the Jews, Greeks, and Romans believed and he certainly did not fit nicely into any political structure. In that time his ideas were catching fire so he was killed as that was a common way to deal with a new threat. Some may suggest that Jesus' anti-death penalty views was a protest to the Roman rule who often trumped up treason charges on any dissenting views and simply executed them. It was their final, harsh way to make others conform to Rome.

    But I also have a liberal friend, very anti-religious but he's pro-choice and pro-death penalty and he only sees one other possibility which is the pro-life, anti-death penalty stance. Like the priest he says it's all about being literal with the sanctity of life or not. For him, it's not practical to have children around being raised by teens who may not be ready, and also it's not a great idea to have sociopathic murderers ever have the chance of walking the street again. He lives right next to Oakland so he sees it all the time and the best way (in his view) to deal with live by the gun die by the gun ganstas is to execute them if they have killed others.
     
  2. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    Location:
    Georgia
    #2
    I've always had difficulty understanding those that are either:

    Pro-Death Penalty / Pro-Life

    or

    Anti-Death Penalty / Pro-Choice​

    Personally, I'm at least consistent. I'm Pro-Death Penalty and Pro-Abortion.
     
  3. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Criminal Mexi Midget
    #3
    Pro choice here. I quit supporting the DP long time ago. Plenty of wrongfully convicted people out there
    Edit

    No such thing as "sanctity " of life. We kill for food, we kill bugs. Most would kill to defend their loved ones.
     
  4. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    #4
    Its actually pretty simple even if you don't agree with it.

    You can be be pro-death penalty and pro-life if you believe that abortion is murder. You can easily say that someone on death row deserves that punishment for their horrific crimes while an innocent baby has done nothing wrong to deserve death.

    On the other hand, one can be pro-choice because you believe that abortion is a medical procedure every woman has a right to that doesn't end a life, just takes away the possibility of a group of cells growing into a baby. They can be against the death penalty because that is the taking of a life and who knows, maybe the person on death row is actually innocent.
     
  5. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    Location:
    Georgia
    #5
    Oh wait, I'm pro-abortion but I do believe it is still murder. I'm just not opposed to it. I also believe that the death penalty is murder. I'm just not opposed to that one either. They are legal murders in my mind.
     
  6. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    #6
    Well "murder" is the illegal killing of someone but I get your point.
     
  7. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #7
    I agree with that, also, in that example because it shows they are two different issues.

    The problem with my priest friend, and frankly with Christianity, is that they don't see finer points. It's all in or all out. I think sanctity, to be fair (or not fair) is when the issue as brought up by religion is usually talking about humans. I can respect shades of gray here even though I have started to hold sanctity of life (human life) more dear these days.

    That being said I am sure there are plenty of religious beliefs that put up animals and plants as just as sacred. I may not hold this view but respect others who hold it to be just as valid.

    I guess it comes down to personal belief. I can eat meat and vegetables and not feel like a murderer, yet I know when we eat a burger a cow had to die, or if we eat vegetables, like a carrot, then that plant was "killed" for our consumption.

    ----------

    "Illegal killing", as a term in jurisprudence is no more valid that "motive". Both those terms are terribly popular in TV law, but by no court in any common law country. You will hear it a lot on CNN but judge and jury instructions are interested in "intent" when it comes to murder, not some fancy Agatha Christie "motive".

    Illegal? Killing? Illegal Killing? By what standard?

    It's certainly not that in law school (in United States). Murder has its elements and different in different states and common law nations. Murder 1, Murder 2, manslaughter, or manslaughter 1, manslaughter 2, and there's wrongful death, varying degrees of intent just to stir up that pot. Voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter. But with intent, it's not all that simple because you have the felony murder rule in some states. It really goes on forever and has a lot of dissents and concurrences along the way.
     
  8. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2011
    Location:
    República Cascadia
    #8
    I'm generally pro-capital punishment; however, I am troubled by the fact we grant the State the power for kill it's own citizens. Not troubled enough to lose sleep over it, though. If the U.S. abolished c.p. it wouldn't bother me, either.

    If someone wants an abortion, that's no more my business than if they're picking their nose. I'm sure it's a difficult decision for some, easy for others. Either way, I don't give a fig.
     
  9. Meister Suspended

    Meister

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    #9
    I am also consistent.
    Anti-Abortion and Anti-Death Penalty
     
  10. citizenzen macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2010
    #10
    I fit that category.

    I'd explain it to you, but we'd probably get into another marathon thread where no one learns anything and instead just holds fast to their preconceived notions as if their very life depended on it.
     
  11. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    #11
    I was just pointing out that the term legal murder didn't really make sense to me. No matter how you break it down, I thought (perhaps incorrectly) that when you use the word "murder", its an illegal act. Legal killing makes more sense to me. Like a justifiable homicide. Not a justifiable murder.
     
  12. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    Location:
    Georgia
    #12
    Okay, how about homicide? Better than using murder?
     
  13. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #13
    At least we don't all fit into the tidy republican majority view fighting against the democratic majority view. It's refreshing when I see somebody hold a view popular in one party and another popular in the other party. Even though I am a democrat and believe the death penalty is wrong, my fellow democrats usually cringe at my pro-life point of view. Maybe as a way to stop illegal abortion clinics, or coat hanger abortions, it should be legal to have safe abortions but the ultimate belief would be in almost perfect birth control and education to the point the whole abortion thing is a non-issue.

    To start another thread topic, I totally don't understand those who are pro-life but don't want to teach sex education. The best way for a kid not to get pregnant is to know how to protect oneself, right? Kids will hit puberty and have sex, regardless of religious point of view, so why not at least show them how not to get pregnant.
     
  14. adroit macrumors 6502

    adroit

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2005
    Location:
    Victoria, BC
    #14
    That is my position as well. I am also anti-euthanasia.
     
  15. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2011
    Location:
    República Cascadia
    #15
    Then don't euthanize yourself but don't try to tell me I can't.
     
  16. Southern Dad macrumors 65816

    Southern Dad

    Joined:
    May 23, 2010
    Location:
    Georgia
    #16
    Add that one to my list, I'm still consistent... Pro Euthenasia
     
  17. 63dot, Nov 21, 2014
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2014

    63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #17
    In most countries, murder is illegal. But with so many points of view, it's acceptable in some cultures. Odd, I know.

    Mr. X stole your goats and sold them for profit, so you get mad and in a fit of (understandable human outrage) you fight him and he dies. In the USA, the attacker would get jail time and probably relating to how he was killed but in some countries, backward if you may, that's totally acceptable and legal.

    Mr. Y (you) killed Mr. X for stealing your goats. So what, next? Sometimes our views of right and wrong in the west may not fit, even with touchy subjects like murder, and sex. That culture may hold that you killed Mr. X if you accidentally ran over him with your truck, but murdered him if you shot him intentionally. Now if you did it for no good reason, that's probably illegal, but if he stole your goats, didn't return them, and sold them, then all bets are off for Mr. Y's right to life. In that same type of culture, you could sell your daughter's virginity and hand in marriage for, well, a few goats and the girl has no say.

    One such man, indigenous South American tribe IIRC, was a farmworker in California and sold his 14 year old daughter in marriage to man from same tribe for beer, meat, and junk food. It was a totally acceptable trade in their view. Daughter was American and raised here so authorities were ready to give father life for that one. When things got ironed out and cultures were brought to light, the father got a slap on the wrist and very little time/fines for selling his daughter off for goods. Of course, the court would not allow that union, not at that age and certainly not for an exchange of goods.
     
  18. Mac'nCheese macrumors 68030

    Mac'nCheese

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    #18
    Yes that's all true. I'm just saying that when a society accepts a killing as ok for whatever reason, they don't call it murder. The definition of murder includes the illegal part. That's all.
     
  19. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2008
    Location:
    Always a day away
    #19
    When unborn babies start committing heinous murders and being convicted by juries of their peers, I might be okay with killing them. If that's not what you're trying to frame in your original post, then I would say the claim that supporting the death penalty and not supporting abortion is "inconsistent" is, at best, "flawed logic."
     
  20. Meister Suspended

    Meister

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    #20
    You don't steal a mans goat. You just don't! :mad:
     
  21. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Criminal Mexi Midget
    #21
    Justifiable in many cases

    ----------

    Can you borrow it for a day or so?
     
  22. Meister Suspended

    Meister

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    #22
    Same as with women. - If you ask nicely and the goat consents, more or less.
     
  23. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Location:
    Criminal Mexi Midget
    #23
    Unborn babies sometimes commit the heinous crime of threatening the mothers life & their life must be terminated to save the mother
     
  24. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2008
    Location:
    Always a day away
    #24
    This is absolutely true. I wonder what percentage of abortions fall into this category?
     
  25. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2011
    Location:
    República Cascadia
    #25
    100% of abortions in the United States result from decisions made by free people living in a free state. That's the only percentage that matters.
     

Share This Page