Choosing the wrong gender: is this interesting/compelling to you?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by spaceboots06, Aug 19, 2009.

  1. spaceboots06 macrumors 6502a

    spaceboots06

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    #1
    http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TS.html#anchor266486

    An example of what I'm talking about would be a hermaphrodite, at birth, being assigned the wrong gender. I.e. surgeons remove the penis and preserve the vagina because the parents decide they want to raise a girl, but ultimately, the soul of this person is boyish. The person feels wrong all of their life because they're really a boy, but are raised to like girl things and partake in girl activities.

    What do you think?
     
  2. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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  3. spaceboots06 thread starter macrumors 6502a

    spaceboots06

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    #3
    I don't know what you're suggesting, but that sort of thing happens often!! I don't think it's the parents' rights to say to a surgeon "remove this" or "remove that" because they want their kid to be a certain way!
     
  4. gilkisson macrumors 65816

    gilkisson

    #4
    Talk about ambiguous.... :D
     
  5. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #5
    You're still not getting my meaning. Re-read your example. I didn't know boys had vaginas. ;)
     
  6. SilentPanda Moderator emeritus

    SilentPanda

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    #6
    I think he (and I) are confused about this line:

    "I.e. surgeons remove the penis and preserve the vagina because the parents decide they want to raise a boy"

    Anatomy class was a while back but I would think if the parents wanted to raise a boy they would probably reverse that preservation.
     
  7. Dany M macrumors 6502

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    #7
    It is their right to do that. What are they going to do? wait 5-6 years until the child finally says what they want. Their is no time to wait. The parent must make a decision and if it is the wrong decision then it is the wrong decision, nothing can change that.
     
  8. Unspoken Demise macrumors 68040

    Unspoken Demise

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    #8
    re-read and correct

    .
     
  9. spaceboots06 thread starter macrumors 6502a

    spaceboots06

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    #9
    ...says what they are.


    Edit: LOL! I just saw my mistake. I need a cup of coffee.
     
  10. gilkisson macrumors 65816

    gilkisson

    #10
    What would you have, then? The doctors make the decision arbitrarily? The census bureau (we need one more girl in this zip code, so...)?
     
  11. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #11
    It's OK. I thought it was really funny. :)
     
  12. Dany M macrumors 6502

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    #12
    :confused: The child doesn't have a choice when they are 3 days old, nothing can be done for the child to interpret if they are male or female. What would you have doctor or parent do?
     
  13. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #13
    I don't think it would be a very good experience to wait till your 5 to get an evasive surgery to decide what you are going to be.
     
  14. spaceboots06 thread starter macrumors 6502a

    spaceboots06

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    #14
    "until" does not equal "three days."

    I guess a reasonable age would be four or five. And if this person wants to keep the unnecessary sex organs, let him/her keep them!

    If you had a boy, and raised him like a girl, wouldn't you feel bad about your child being confused his entire life???

    Yes, but it's not like people are looking at your "problem." Look at Lady GaGa, she (he?) never had her penis removed and she's a giant hit.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbmxw6befyQ

    1:05

    And there are about three other videos/ pictures showing it.
     
  15. gilkisson macrumors 65816

    gilkisson

    #15
    The "naughty bits" are there for many purposes. Elimination, for one, a function one cannot live well without. What if the doctors recommended a certain direction, based upon quality of life of the child? Wouldn't the parents need to go along with that, for the child's sake?

    There's not much chance of a child being born perfectly 50/50, as your hypothetical situation assumes.
     
  16. barkomatic macrumors 68040

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    #16
    I disagree. Often in these cases, the child's gender identity is different than the chosen gender. Then what you get is a much more painful situation later when the former hermaphrodite desparately wants to be a girl after years of suffering as a boy.

    It's absolutely a very bad decision to pick the kids gender at birth. Raise the child and see how they identify--it will much easier on them later.
     
  17. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #17
    In the case of that fella from Manitoba (although he was not intersexed), it was a real disaster until he ultimately understood what had been done and decided to take his life back....
     
  18. barkomatic macrumors 68040

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    #18
    It doesn't matter what the doctor recommends in this case. Just because you choose a certain gender doesn't mean the child will feel like that particular gender--even if they have mostly male or female parts.

    Its not about choosing the gender with the most intact sexual organs, its about choosing the gender the child identifies with.
     
  19. Dany M macrumors 6502

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    #19
    I feel raising a child with both parts will cause confusion and create a distance from other kids and the kid won't feel capable of relating to other kids. I think that if a child has both it will stigmatize them.

    Whether they are "ok" with it or not is something we can't tell but holding off a decision as grand as that doesn't seem wise.

    Even if the parents or doctor say it can be held off....i don't think it is a wise idea.
     
  20. gilkisson macrumors 65816

    gilkisson

    #20
    Which is impossible to do at birth.

    Re-Reading, I see what I've done -- presumed a medical urgency to make the decision, as if the life/health of the child would be affected detrimentally unless a decision is made right away.

    Take medical need/quality of life out of the equation... then I don't know. That makes it much more of an ethical question... hmm... yes, if there is no harm to the child, wait.
     
  21. chrmjenkins macrumors 603

    chrmjenkins

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    #21
    It is a tough issue, but it is certain that there's no way you can be sure of what the child would want. Doing a karyotype, looking at hormone levels, phenotype etc. can never predict what the child would want. It's completely possible they may wish to identify with one gender but want the genitalia of the opposite one.

    If the child has ambiguous genitalia, it will most certainly be a source of stress for the child, and even seeing what gender they choose to identify with at 6 is not enough because they've likely not established a sexual preference either. It is for those reasons I don't see a great deal of merit in waiting. The way I see it, there's a near 100% chance of it being able to cause psychological problems, yet taking action at birth has a 50% chance of being wrong. If that choice turns out to be wrong, they will continue on an odyssey that they were already bound to go on. That's why I would make a best effort at the time of birth rather than forestalling it. Unfortunately, there's no right answer, and any decision is going to have repercussions.
     
  22. Unspoken Demise macrumors 68040

    Unspoken Demise

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    #22
    If I were put in the situation as a parent, I would do whatever surgery the doctor told me would cause the least amount of physical pain for my new-born child.
     
  23. barkomatic macrumors 68040

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    #23
    Just because you might feel stigmatized doesn't mean the child should suffer under an assumed gender to make you feel better. Any social impact of having both sex organs for awhile is dwarfed by the massive depression and anger the kid will have toward you for possibly making the wrong choice.

    It's gonna be hard for the kid regardless, but it will be MUCH easier if the parents would just wait in these cases.
     
  24. gilkisson macrumors 65816

    gilkisson

    #24
    Just had a cynical thought: a good amount of the "urgency" to choose may come from administrative needs. There is, after all, only two choices for Sex/Gender on the birth certificate, and there is only so much time before they *must* fill out the form and send it to the state. C'mon, Mom and Dad, make up your minds, we have a job to do here....
     
  25. barkomatic macrumors 68040

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    #25
    Agreed, society in general likes people to fit into neat categories--we know how well that worked out in the past. :rolleyes: It's a shame to make a decision like this simply to keep someone from having to create another column in a spreadsheet!
     

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