Christianity.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by MegaMillions, Aug 23, 2009.

  1. MegaMillions macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2009
    #1
    So, I recently started dating a christian girl who identifies herself as christian because of her upbringing and her family, but she is by no means fanatically religious in any way. Aside from believing in God, she doesn't believe any of the christian stories that don't make sense. She accepts anything that has been scientifically proven.

    It's amazing that i'm even dating her. I'm the type of person who would write people off for being christian, but this girl is a real thinker. She thinks for herself and forms her own opinions on practically everything. Anything illogical about the christian religion, she abandons.

    But because she's christian, I just keep thinking about the whole religious situation in the world, and I don't understand why everybody is christian. Why is a massive portion of America christians? Why did this happen? At the end of Religious, Bill Maher points out that if you belonged to any sort of social group that was involved in as much destruction, stupidity and lunacy as religion has been, you would resign in protest.

    What is the deal with christianity? Why do honest, loving, wonderful people identify themselves with a group that has been responsible for acts of sheer lunacy and the deaths of millions throughout history?
     
  2. P-Worm macrumors 68020

    P-Worm

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    #2
    I believe that a lot of apostasy from Christ's teachings have occurred over the years that led to the deaths that you speak of. I also believe that Christ restored His original Church to the earth. Just because a lot of people in the past did terrible things in the name of Christianity doesn't mean that's what Christ wanted or wants today.

    P-Worm

    P.S. I'm a mechanical engineer.
     
  3. 63dot macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #3
    I think if given a chance and the time, minor religions would have a body count as large as Islam or Christianity. Much has been done in the name of religion which is more political, and not really religious at all. Take Belfast and look at the roots of the violence there over history. I don't see any strong evidence that religion was the "key" issue there. Occupation, invasion, violence in the name of revenge, and political/monetary power are the culprits, as is almost always the case.
     
  4. steve knight Suspended

    steve knight

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    #4
    all you have to believe in is that Christ died for your sins and you accept him or god or both as your savior I guess.
    people believe because it gives them security to think they are loved and watched over and will go to heaven. someone open minded can never really be deeply religious. since religion requires that you believe and not think about it. think too much and it all starts to fall apart.
    there is always some justification of evil and war can be accused of just doing it because you want power.
     
  5. Bobdude161 macrumors 65816

    Bobdude161

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2006
    Location:
    N'Albany, Indiana
    #6
    +1337

    Sounds like your girlfriend is agnostic more than anything. Yes, she was born and raised in a Christian family and yes she does believe in a god, but that in no way makes a Christian. To simply believe is nothing. To live it is something else.
     
  6. P-Worm macrumors 68020

    P-Worm

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2002
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    #7
    I don't believe this. In the church I belong to, we believe that we need to personally examine everything we come across, study it and then to pray in hopes of getting a personal witness as to whether it is truthful or not. To me, nearly every belief in the religion I belong to makes not only logical sense, but makes sense in the realm of science and physics.

    P-Worm
     
  7. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    #8

    I do not agree with this. You can be very open minded and very deeply religions. I have friends who are that way. if anything you believing that way is very closed minded and not open minded at all.
     
  8. 63dot macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #9
    If there is something that clearly defies physics or just plain old experience, be open minded about it. Looking at what Einstein proved that time is relative and basically an illusion goes far into explaining how Christ claimed he could exist in the past, present, and future concurrently. Under a Newtonian model of the universe, which most people not familiar with physics will attest to, what Christ claimed was impossible. But advanced physics students do know that time itself is relative and a part of the bendable fabric of space time. One of the big pet peeves of physics legend Richard Feynman was that the big ideas and truth as we know it was not taught to physics students in their early years in school. They would have to be taught that Newton was it, master his model, and then only later find out parts of it were not true due to findings of Einstein and later physicists and mathematicians.

    In a model where time is nothing more than a man made construct, much of what was in the bible which made no sense does. How does somebody live 800+ years? How does, like mentioned above, Christ exist in different dimensions of time? How can the earth be billions of years old but only casually referred to as an entity that at most, can cover a 6,000 year history? Why does God perceive a huge amount of time as just a flash or happening all at once?

    Also what about a spiritual realm where matter does not exist? Anyway, before the big bang, all that empty space out there was not matter. And now that we know that virtually all matter is empty space itself, it's not too hard to imagine a spiritual realm that does not have to follow the rules of the matter we live and experience everyday.

    Until recently, Einsteinian physics alluded to the fact that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light. However, it's accepted today that during the big bang, for there to be enough energy to make a tiny piece of matter the size of an atom explode and expand into all the known galaxies, the explosion itself would have to travel faster than the speed of light. That much energy, within it's context of a big bang, would be needed to fuse the building blocks of hydrogen and helium into the periodic table today. This nearly impossible happening of anything traveling faster than the speed of light, or now realizing that time simply does not exist outside of a man made construct, goes a long way as circumstantial evidence of intelligent creation.

    I saw Ben Stein's "Expelled" and while I disagree with his conservative politics, he made an almost bulletproof argument for intelligent design. He's just a lawyer with some scientific knowledge, and those top scientists who did not believe in intelligent design could not come up with a suitable answer, or even approach, as to why there is no God.

    Physics is a work in progress, and the few parts of the bible that don't mesh with what we understand in the universe, will eventually be discovered. There is nothing supernatural imho, we are all just events and creations from a single source I call God. I don't have to be a physicist to believe just because the physicists have not proved or disproved every disputable happening in the bible. I won't live long enough to see that happen, so until then I remain a Christian. As for denomination, that's a person's choice and another thread.
     
  9. arkitect macrumors 601

    arkitect

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2005
    Location:
    Bath, United Kingdom
    #10
    So… what does she have left?
    ;)
     
  10. 63dot macrumors 603

    63dot

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Location:
    norcal
    #11
    As to time not existing

    Interesting dream experiments, as outlined in a book I read by Diane Hennacy Powell, MD, went into how a person who had a dream would recall the major facts of a dream, and what minor facts they could remember. They would weave these facts into a story as they experienced them and this could fill out a one hour, or longer, script. But the equipment hooked up to the brain of that person dreaming would only show that they were dreaming for a few minutes at most.

    In the dream state, a person can experience a massive amount of events with many, many characters who can be explained with excruciating detail, and have those characters go through many interactions and events in just a few minutes. Clearly time can be very different in a person's dream state. It's more evidence showing that time is relative. Further experiments like this, and in the large spectrum of physics will show that over and over, time is just an illusion us frail minded humans had to come up with to deal with the universe.

    What a mind blower it must have been 100 years ago when time was shown, indisputably, to be influenced by gravity, or great velocities and not be a constant that can be relied on.
     
  11. djellison macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena CA
    #12
    WEll - that was my immediate thoguht. Religion itself, is fundamentally illogical. If you remove all illogical things from religion, you're left with 4/5ths of 9/10ths of f-all.
     
  12. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    #13
    Logic is merely deducing a conclusion from something else. Once you have the starting point "there is a God" then religion flows completely logically from it. Sure that requires belief, but belief itself is not inherently illogical.

    Science, for example, uses logic to deduce conclusions and formulas and all that from observable evidence. There is no evidence to show that these scientific laws are immutable, but we treat them as such because it is useful to believe that they are. The inclusion of belief does not make science illogical.

    Similarly, if religion is useful for someone to gain meaning to his life and to live productively in society, it is not illogical to believe in God. All religion can then logically flow from that belief.

    Belief itself is not inherently illogical, and therefore religion is not "fundamentally illogical."
     
  13. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2008
    Location:
    Always a day away
    #14
    You speak as though you think all Christians are mindless sheep - or warmongering barbarians. I can't tell which.

    Either way, your generalization is way off. I'm a Christian, and I know not to take things too literally and to think for myself.

    Don't be so surprised; there's quite a few of us.

    I love your premise - so Christians are the ones who are closed-minded, but then you're closed-minded enough to make that statement? Oh, the irony.

    Like I said, believing something and thinking about it aren't mutually exclusive. I just don't take everything so literally.
     
  14. MegaMillions thread starter macrumors regular

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2009
    #15
    That was my thought as well. I asked her what exactly makes her a christian at this point, and she said "I don't know."

    She definitely falls into the category of "thinking too much so it all starts to fall apart."
     
  15. djellison macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena CA
    #16
    There is no logical justification for that.

    Religion is not logical. You can justify it which ever way you choose, but it is NOT logical. Science evolves. If something knew is discovered or understood or measured or calculated, then the theories are improved and adapted to improve out understanding of the natural world. That is logical.

    Blind faith is not.
     
  16. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Location:
    Toronteazy
    #17
    Belief by itself is not inherently illogical. Belief without evidence is. Additionally, God fails many litmus tests of logic, including Occam's Razor; God necessarily complicates all logical solutions by adding a step.
    No true scientist believes that scientific laws are immutable. A perfect example is when Einstein's theory of gravity replaced Newton's. Nothing in science is immutable, and science is a self-correcting system. There have been numerous scientific upheavals and revolutions that have fundamentally altered the core of science.
    That's not correct. Something does not have to be logical to be useful or good. You are confusing "religion is illogical" with "religion is bad". Even someone as cynically anti-theistic as myself knows that there is plenty of good to be had from illogical ideas and concepts, including religion. It is not the illogical nature of religion that would rob it of value anymore than the illogical nature of love and relationships rob them of value.
    Yeah, it is. And furthermore, why would you want to undercut the value of faith by trying to conform it to constraints in which it does not fit?
     
  17. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    #18
    I just gave you a logical justification for it. I think you're confusing logic with empiricism. They are not the same.

    And you deny that theology evolves? And religion of course would reject anything that an observation proves false. In fact it has many times.

    I agree. But not all religious faith is "blind."

    An interesting read that serves as a good starting point for exploration of the topic: Link.
     
  18. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2007
    Location:
    Toronteazy
    #19
    That would depend on the religion. Some do not evolve or reject observed falsehoods (creationism and young earth creationism come to mind) whereas others can be surprisingly forward-thinking. I think both sides of this debate need to be careful not to generalize.
     
  19. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    #20
    Good point. Duly noted. I should caveat my posts with, yes, of course some people (a lot actually...) are extremely illogical concerning religion. But that is not necessarily a product of religion. In most cases it is probably a product that particular person.
     
  20. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #21
    And the corollary is that religion (such as christianity), by it's essential "faith", is fundamentally illogical.
     
  21. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    #22
    Did you read the thread? We've moved past "Christianity is illogical because it includes faith" and into "Is faith illogical?" If we all agreed faith was illogical, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Your comment adds nothing.

    It seems to me that there are just as many people who are illogical about their faith in science and empiricism as people who are illogical about their faith in Christianity. It seems whole swaths of people are completely unaware of the field of metaphysics. Any discussion about whether religion is logical has to enter that territory.

    EDIT: And not to mention the idea that the existence of God can be proved logically. See Thomas Aquinas.
     
  22. Rt&Dzine macrumors 6502a

    Rt&Dzine

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2008
    #23
    Many people need religion. It can help you get through the difficulties in life and give you a purpose for this absurd existence. And people who are raised with religion often can't shake that view of the world. You can debate it 'til you're blue in the face, but it will always come down to a leap of faith.

    Christianity in particular is very popular. I never understood why so others will have to explain it. Maybe because it doesn't ask a lot of you. In some of the sects, it's a simple as accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior with no need to alter your behavior.

    Some polls suggest that Christianity is losing its ground and that Islam may overtake it. Time will tell.
     
  23. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #24
    I've most certainly read the thread. however if you're going to attack people who are against religion as being "illogical" it should be no problem to point out the extension of that statement.

    The "science is a faith argument" and therefore equivalent to religion is false.

    There couldn't be a better illustration of the illogical religion argument.
     
  24. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2004
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    #25
    What? Because I disagree with you, you merely point out that you disagree with me? I gave at least some explanation of my beliefs. Maybe you'd care to give some explanation for your beliefs?

    Have you ever read Aquinas?

    I do not believe you know what the words "logical" and "illogical" mean or even what logic is if you believe making a statement like that a) advances the discussion at all or b) is a logical statement; it sounds more illogical than anything else since all it says is, "I disagree with you and your interpretation of metaphysics, and I refuse to discuss the differences, but rather just say that you're illogical without any need of explanation because my ideas are so superior to yours."

    If you're so sure of your beliefs that you're not willing to question them or discuss them, I suggest you not post.
     

Share This Page