Chuck Schumer's NICS reform bill

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Lord Blackadder, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #1
    Comedian Amy Schumer has teamed up with distant relative Charles Schumer (D-NY) to publicize the latter's latest gun control bill.

    "On Monday, the Schumers outlined a three-part gun-control plan, according to the senator’s office. The new legislation uses a carrots-and-sticks strategy for states to submit key records into the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. States that give all the paperwork will get financial rewards, while states that don’t will face penalties.

    The two Schumers also pressed the Justice Department to write a report and make recommendations on how states handle involuntary mental health commitment. And then the duo pushed Congress to fully fund mental-health and substance-abuse programs, noting that the Senate Republican budget proposal slices $159 million from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration."


    The bill's text isn't up yet as far as I can find, but he has been pushing bills to reform the NICS for some time now, so I presume this one is similar. Right now, states are doing a terrible job of making sure the NICS database has complete and up-to-date information on convicted felons, spousal abusers and the mentally ill. As a result, people with these backgrounds are slipping through the system and buying firearms from FFLs.

    NICS reform is reasonable and politically moderate, something both parties can support without even modifying their basic stances on gun control; the only reason it isn't happening is that common sense no longer has much influence in Washington.
     
  2. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #2
    This will go nowhere unless Donald Trump blesses it.
     
  3. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

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    #3
    What are the odds that this bill only encourages/forces states to do a better job forwarding information to the NICS? (which they should be doing) While I am doubtful, I'll reserve judgement until more information is available.
     
  4. tgara macrumors 6502a

    tgara

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    #4
    If Chuck wants to make a real impact, he should get behind the gun emoji ban! :D
     
  5. Praxis91 macrumors regular

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    #5
    Good luck with HIPAA.

    No would should trust Schumer though. He's a piece of garbage. His cousin (I did not know they were related) is a comic famous only because she curses a lot.

    Since almost all gun violence (aside from suicides) is gang/violence-related, perhaps they should go after the cause of the violence.. the drug trade... illegal aliens... etc.

    A stable economy would go a long way to prevent unstable people from having itchy trigger fingers...too bad the economy is in the toilet.
     
  6. Eraserhead macrumors G4

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    #6
    Source?
     
  7. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #7
    I can't see that being a problem. The FBI maintains the database and the information already exists in state databases - or, at least it should. Part of the problem here is poor record-keeping by many states.

    This kind of information is already held and exchanged between a wide variety of local, state and federal bureaus as well as healthcare institutions, insurance companies and even credit organizations. How does the NICS not have equal standing with these?

    Neither of these are valid reasons to dismiss this bill, or the concept opt NICS reform. Schumer is hardly a person I'd want to spend time with, but that's not the point. This is not a Three Cheers for Chuck Schumer bill, this is a NICS reform bill.

    Are you rejecting this bill already? Because I haven't seen the text yet... that makes it seem as if you are more interested in the author than the substance of the bill itself.

    This isn't about trying to solve the bigger problems - usually I'm an advocate of that first and foremost - but those efforts are even more politically difficult than enforcement.

    Making the NICS function properly is something we could implement rapidly and it would have real benefits. The Virginia Tech shooter bought his Glock from a gun store and passed an NICS that should have stopped him. he's far from the only example. If we can get a federal law passed that will encourage states to make the NICS actually work the way it was supposed to we can put up significant obstacles to felons, domestic abusers and mentally ill people who try to buy guns - moreover, failing those NICS checks will alert authorities that a gun purchase was attempted.

    NICS reform will help keep guns out of the hands of felons, spousal abusers and the mentally ill; it will not in any way, shape or form restrict lawful buyers from access to any legal firearms. I really think this is a no brainer.
     
  8. Praxis91 macrumors regular

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    #8
    Common sense. Also, BJS has decent stats:

    http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf#page=27

    Large cities have a majority of homicides (57.7%). Drug and gang violence are almost 70% large city.

    The demographics are pretty telling as well. These stats don't have info on illegals, unfortunately, but you can open any west coast or border city (e.g. in TX) newspaper to see the daily violence from the illegals and/or drug trade.

    For more stats (http://www.nij.gov/topics/crime/gun-violence/Pages/welcome.aspx):

    Our cities are plagued by broken families and drug violence. It's a shame that our government gave firearms to drug cartels.

    As for Schumer, I trust him as far as I can throw him. I'd like to see the EXACT changes first, especially since Schumer is responsible for this lovely quote:

    "We have three branches of government. We have a house, we have a senate, we have a president. And, all three of us are going to have to come together and give some."

    That's not (D) Hank Johnson dumb, but it's up there..yet this moron keeps getting re-elected.

    Schumer also possesses a CHL but doesn't think that us, the little people, should have that luxury.. and that's in addition to his expensive armed security.

    #AllLivesMatter
     
  9. miloblithe macrumors 68020

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    #9
    Those numbers aren't very meaningful. 57.7% of homicides occur in large cities? What percentage of the population lives in large cities? A much higher percentage, certainly, than live in rural areas where 7.5% of homicides take place. Take a look at these statistics:

    http://www.victimsofcrime.org/docs/ncvrw2013/2013ncvrw_stats_urbanrural.pdf

    So murder happens much more often in cities, but it happens at a 56% higher rate, not a 770% higher rate as the statistics you quoted would imply.
     
  10. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #10
    So, what do you think about the NICS? You've discussed Chuck and Amy Schumer, gangs, illegal immigrants and HIPAA. Not much on the NICS.
     
  11. Praxis91 macrumors regular

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    #11
    I'm fine with NICS when I go to an FFL. I fill out the 4473, wait a few minutes while the FFL makes his call, and I go on my way. Otherwise, I enjoy my private face to face transactions as well.

    I simply don't trust Schumer because he has tried NICS reform in the past (2001, S1788) in an effort with Ted Kennedy to make NICS info an audit log from law-abiding purchasers.. which is basically a registry, which I am 100000% against.

    Schumer has proposed this registration scheme multiple times, the latest being 2013. He will not succeed.
     
  12. Lord Blackadder, Aug 4, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015

    Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #12
    I am no stranger to private transactions - they are convenient, though much more susceptible to abuse. But I still think we should have an efficient, effective NICS. I assume you want the system to work as intended, right? Well, it doesn't - it's far too porous because the states aren't doing their job and keeping the database current. It's broken and needs to be fixed.

    I don't really care one way or another about a registry. I think it will probably be impractical for at least a generation or two.

    This isn't directed at you specifically, but your comment immediately made me think of the net neutrality bills that have been a battleground in Congress over the last few years, as well as the mass phone/internet data gathering the CIA has been doing for years now.

    Why is the NRA so effective at mobilizing people against gun control partly on the basis of privacy concerns, but the same senators and voters who support those efforts either ignore or even aid far more egregious privacy violations by the telecom corporations and the CIA? With that info, they not only know you bought a gun, but how much it cost, who you bought it from and even what you are doing with it going forward. And, unlike the record of a 4473, that data could be stored forever and used in ways you as a citizen are not even allowed to know about!
     
  13. hulugu macrumors 68000

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    #13
    Good to see you've tried to blame illegal immigration for the United States homicide rate, however there is no correlation between the unauthorized immigrant population and homicides rates in the United States.

    First, let's look at homicide rates. (Rates are always useful because they show the number compared to population, which is far more useful.)

    In the United States, the city with the highest homicide rate is Detroit, Michigan with a homicide rate of 54.6 per 100,000 people. The total estimated unauthorized population in the state? 120,000.

    The next city with the highest homicide rate is New Orleans, Louisiana with a homicide rate of 53.2 per 100,000 people. The total estimated unauthorized population in the state? 55,000.

    It's not until we get to Oakland and Stockton, California (number 5 and 6) that we see cities in states were the unauthorized population is large. California hosts the largest unauthorized population with 2.45 million.

    Moreover, it's been noted that while the crime rate of the United States has declined markedly, the unauthorized population increased.

    As usual everything that conservatives learned about Fast and Furious came from Fox News. The reason that the operation was created in the first place is that the ATF was trying to track the sale and transfer of straw purchases of semi-automatic rifles at gun stores in Texas and Arizona.

    I suggest a rewrite: It's a shame that American gun shops profited in illegal arms smuggling to drug cartels.
     
  14. Technarchy macrumors 603

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    #14
    I don't many people understand how gun store sales, the 4473, and BATF regulation and audits works.

    That ignorance of process makes it easy to be duped by any bad bill that gets proposed by political hack X.
     
  15. hulugu, Aug 4, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015

    hulugu macrumors 68000

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    #15
    That cuts both ways.

    At this point, I'd trust Lord Blackadder's understanding of a bill's consequences because he understands the law and isn't ideologically opposed to NICS or reasonable policies.

    On the other hand, Praxis91 lacks credibility on the subject because he would "100000%" oppose anything that smacked of a registry and hasn't apparently read the bill.

    One thing that will be interesting to see is what happens to Schumer's bill even while the National Shooting Sports Foundation is pursuing their own protect to "FixNICS."
     
  16. Technarchy macrumors 603

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    #16
    It may cut both ways because 9 times out of 10 these bills aren't clean. They are overflowing with blatantly anti-gun language that most supporters of the 2nd will never support.

    Give me a clean bill that ONLY deals with preventing mental cases from getting firearms and NOTHING more, and I might support it provided the scope is narrow enough not screw some poor guy who had a rough patch after divorce, death of a child, PTSD or something else extremely traumatic that resulted in a momentary breakdown.

    Clean bills are far more likely to get support than the lobbyist spew written up with the intent of confusing people and obscuring the real agenda.
     
  17. hulugu macrumors 68000

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    #17
    The bill isn't yet available, however, the current read from Sen. Schumer is that the bill would simply require states to submit mental health records to NICS and would include a carrot and stick approach to encourage states to do so.

    As for "blatantly anti-gun language" it might be worth noting that the original two paragraphs of S. 374, Schumer's first attempt to do the same thing in 2013, included the following:

    If this comes from gun ownership's enemies, then it must be blow jobs and puppy dogs all the rest of the day.
     
  18. Technarchy macrumors 603

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    #18
    You know as well as I do the real meat and potatoes of a bill is not just what government can do, but also what they can't do.

    Devils in the details. Let's see the bill and what Chicanery Chucky has on his mind.
     
  19. hulugu macrumors 68000

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    #19
    Absolutely.
     
  20. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #20
    I'm not sure what you mean. Go back to your Form 4473: if you can truthfully give "correct" answers to the questions in Question 11, Section A, then you may purchase and own firearms. If not, then you are not allowed to purchase or own firearms.

    This is a reasonable threshold and I don't see how any reasonable person can argue against it. The bill proposed in the OP does not alter this threshold as far as I can tell. It's primary purpose is to enforce it.

    I would say the same about most of the BS omnibus bills Congress try to pass these days. Stupid partisan riders attached to critical funding measures. Fatcat cynical congressmen dicing with the lives of middle and working class people just so they can get some airtime for their talking points, obstruct political opponents and get re-elected. And plenty of idiot one issue/wedge issue voters go along with it on both sides of the aisle.

    99.9% of bills are composed of "lobbyist spew" these days, including, I am sure, all the bills you like. That's how our Congress works.
     
  21. Technarchy, Aug 4, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015

    Technarchy macrumors 603

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    #21
    You'd be surprised. Not much worthwhile comes out of Washington and I support very little put forth. Last thing I can think of is the Fair Credit Reporting Improvement Act of 2014 by Maxine Waters.
     
  22. Lord Blackadder, Aug 5, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015

    Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #22
    Fair enough. It's easy to say that though - the country still needs to be run. I consider myself a moderate pragmatist. I don't like the way business is conducted in Congress. I don't really like either party either, though one clearly strays further from my inclinations than the other. I support the ownership and use of firearms by law-abiding citizens. I think outright bans are not going to work. But I do favor regulation - in some cases strict - of weapons.

    Gun control has become a debate in which the extreme views have hijacked the conversation. Almost all regulation is cast as government overreach and fear is almost the only motivator. This is why political moderates are so important - and so despised by extremists; they eschew the easy route of fear mongering and appeal to reason. A forlorn hope, perhaps, but it remains the only way anything sensible is ever going to get done. Otherwise, we are going to continue to live under stupid laws drafted by the fringe, like the Assault Weapons Ban or the enhanced "kill at will" castle doctrine laws.
     
  23. Eraserhead macrumors G4

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    #23
    Or we are going to live under 40mph speed limits on all roads with a 10mph limit in cities which is equally scary.
     
  24. MacNut macrumors Core

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    #24
    So legalize drugs. Take the sale out of the dealers hands.
     

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