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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by mactastic, Dec 7, 2007.
Obviously not as heinous as Sandy Burgler's theft and destruction of documents, but it does seem pretty bad.
Once again, you refuse to live in the present. It's always about the past for you guys. You have to find a way to justify your actions that you know damn well are just as wrong, but hey- someone else did it too, so it's not so bad.
Looks like those tapes were destroyed in 2005. Sounds like it's in the past to me.
I'm not defending any of this. I just heard on the radio that there are people that dispute this report, so until it's sorted out I'm not too worried about it.
Sandy Berger did not destroy anything that there wasn't already a copy of elsewhere.
But nice try. I know you're getting desperate when you break out the "well we're not as bad as Clinton" argument.
How do you know? Reports are that they can't even determine what was lost in the destroyed documents, but you have knowledge there's copies of it. Amazing.
The Federal govt is out of control, it seems it can make and follow its own rules under George who's for torture, spying , and cover ups. I guess if the president can out cia agents then the cia can burn documents?
I know because I read the news. You really ought to try it sometime.
Now, can we please get back on topic?
Ok, the video tapes were just copies of the memories these people have of the events that transpired. So, the originals are still intact. Good catch!
You're really stretching now. You've been proven wrong, at least be a man and admit it.
Can anyone with clearance access those memories? Can anyone with clearance access the documents Berger destroyed?
Nice try though.
Edit: And if you are seriously trying to put forth the argument that memories are an equal substitute for documents or videotapes, why would you even care what Berger did? Obviously there are people who remember creating those documents. Thus Berger could not have destroyed anything of any value, and his conviction should be reversed, right?
Nope. He's got Clenis envy, apparently.
I had opened this thread fully expecting to see you explain this away so it can fit nicely in your little world you have made for yourself.
Thanks for not letting me down.
On topic, though, I hope we see someone held responsible for this. I'm either expecting another round of resignations or another full-fledged investigation because of it.
I somehow get the feeling that waterboarding would've been a walk in the park compared to what they did to these guys.
Absolutely nothing that Clinton or his associates did remotely compares to what Bush and his administration have done. Nothing.
Bush's administration has created a pattern of deceit, deception, corruption and allegiance to only their agenda. Their constituency has shrunk dramatically over the past several years, and yet they serve it ever more zealously.
Comparing the destruction of documents to the abuse of actual people? Unbelievable, and yet at the same time, I can do little but blink. We're so desensitized now.
Don't even try to tell Swarmy that. People take a back seat to money in his world. If it makes him rich, it's OK. Torture is absolutely fine, as long as it's profitable.
Except that those responsible are still in power, still doing it (cough: missing e-mails :cough).
Sandy Berger was caught, prosecuted, and no one here is going to defend it, we just want you to deal with what's currently going on.
That's exactly what you're doing, and trying to distract from the real issue here, which is what was destroyed and why.
You're kidding here right? Want to post some legit links? Or is this just someone else talking out of their ass to confuse the issue? You have your proof right there, accept reality or don't.
Probably not. But again, he has nothing, so what do you expect? This is despicable, there is nothing else to say.
That wasn't my point - in this thread. Classified documents and materials are destroyed every single day by the reams. It just seems that because this particular information would make fine TV news and reinforce the liberal media's fixation on what is and isn't torture that all of a sudden it should be saved for eternity. Where's the requirement that the tape be made of the interrogation in the first place?
Hmmm, where to start. Do you ever actually read the news? It does not appear so. The interrogation tape(s) have actually been subpoenaed by the judge in a federal court, as well as by the US Justice Department. Your suggestion that their main purpose would be for entertainment value is really coming from left-field, and shows you have no clue as to what they really contain.
It is unclear, as of this AM, whether charges for obstruction of justice will be brought forward. Senator Biden believes an independent prosecutor should be assigned. If that does not happen, the the Justice Department will handle the case. However, the Justice Department reports to the President. With Bush's dismal track record for honesty, and integrity, few people would trust him to perform an objective and unbiased investigation/prosecution.
When I read your comment ".. the liberal media's fixation on what is and isn't torture...", I just shook my head. That statement is so lame, it might have come directly from O'Rielly. Or, maybe it did.
Yeah, because it's only liberals and their "liberal media" (which you know damn well it isn't, even for someone like you who's so far to the right everything is left) who care about torture and keeping evidence. You throw a hissy because Sandy Berger destroyed documents, even though he was punished for it, but when your guys do it, it's no big deal. And hey, it's only about torture. Torture is obviously perfectly fine for us to do, then lie about, then hide and destroy the evidence of, and not hypocritical at all.
Of course not. Do you think anyone who actually knew what was going on would say such a thing? But it's easier to defend such things when you don't.
HAHAHAHAHAAAA!!! You fixate on Sandy Berger and his document destruction, yet now you say classified document destruction is simply the norm.
Priceless. And rarely a clearer display of someone's rank partisanship.
Well, it is. I've had hundreds of classified documents destroyed when I worked in the defense industry from the mid-eighties through the late nineties. Some were documents I myself generated and others were just old documents on the program I worked on.
If a large number of classified documents weren't destroyed every year, we'd be buried in them by now.
The interrogation and techniques used on both KSA and Zubayda are well documented and no one denies how it took place and the results of the interrogation. It seems that the only issue extant about the tapes is that they can't be leaked to the media for political purposes.
If classified document destruction is so commonplace, why do you miss no opportunity to bring up Sandy Berger then?
That's so ridiculous I don't know where to start.
You've clearly answered SMM's question, you don't really know what the story is, or choose not to. They lied about having them and what was in them, then when they were requested as part of an investigation when discovered, were destroyed to cover up what was on them. And all you can say is that we're the ones being partisans, that this is all about political points. Couldn't possibly that we don't like the fact that we lower ourselves to what our enemies do, that we don't think we should be torturing. Beyond being reprehensible, which you'd think would be enough, it's not reliable enough to count on what we gain from it. But you're ok with it anyway, even while decrying our enemies as the savages, not realizing the irony. And you're ok with the people you support covering it up, throwing out the name of someone else who did it for the other party, as if to excuse it while still getting your partisan political talking point in.
We don't excuse Sandy, because it was wrong, and I'm glad there was punishment. It's even worse in this case considering what was covered up. But you're ok with that for some reason. Until a Dem does it of course, then you'll be back to criticizing them because of how unAmerican it is.
You know the answer to that, because this is indefensible and he has nothing else.