CIA report read in the Senate

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by 63dot, Dec 9, 2014.

  1. 63dot macrumors 603

    63dot

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  2. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #2
    Feinstein is a hypocrite and a fraud, where is her outrage with the NSA spying. Fine go after the CIA for their torture but also go after the NSA.
     
  3. mrkramer macrumors 603

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    #3
    And sadly even with this report nobody is going to be held accountable for it. And it'll probably be a while before we see much of any investigation into continued use of torture beyond the Bush years.
     
  4. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    #4
  5. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #5
    I don't understand the point of this report. Feinstein's hands are bloody over the NSA spying on US citizens, but she seems fine with that. But we are torturing terrorists and she is up in arms over it. She can't have it both ways, we are either breaking laws and the constitution or we aren't.
     
  6. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #6
    the ONLY reason she is mad is
    http://news.yahoo.com/senate-report-harsh-cia-tactics-didnt-164704453.html

    no problems with spying on citizens, but God forbid they spy on her:rolleyes:
     
  7. VulchR macrumors 68020

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    #7
    I think it's good that it more out in the open now. However, I'd like to see a similar report on drone strikes and NSA snooping.
     
  8. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #8
    Feinstein didn't have the credibility, like said here, but I think the powerful thing here was John McCain, a republican, talking against the CIA.

    He's no dove though and more than happy to "bring in the B-52s" to fight terrorists. Somehow our public is OK with many innocents getting killed in an inaccurate carpet bombing attack but not OK with torture.

    Our nation should stand against both torture and carpet bombing. It is a good thing we have refrained this time and used small scale bombing against ISIS as opposed to the B-52s we used to kill many innocents while taking out Saddam Hussein.

    It should also come to a point where the nation is just as outraged against NSA spying on innocent civilians. Somehow we seem to trust that the NSA and its people won't use this information for personal enrichment and sheer blackmail like J Edgar Hoover. Human nature and it's inevitability to fall to its lowest common denominator will eventually shed light on numerous, expensive schemes made more easy by the NSA's ability to spy on Americans. So many worry about China hacking our personal financials but should be just as vigilant against an NSA who could steal and use your information.

    ----------

    Too much evidence, especially from the notorious Hanoi Hilton, has shown that prisoners give up any so-called information if its something they think their captors want to hear in order to stop the suffering.

    With torture you end up with far more bad than good in terms of information that can be used. When fighting an enemy why set yourself back by pushing your information structure behind by bad information?

    That bad information costs lives and money and our torture programs only end up aiding the enemy. The only thing torture serves is for a sense of revenge against an enemy but it has nothing to do with useable information.
     
  9. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #9
    This is a total non sequitur. Someone could think that the NSA's program was legal, but also think that torturing people is wrong and go after the CIA.

    These are two entirely different issues and I don't understand why you're trying to conflate the two.
     
  10. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #10
    so rights for terrorist but not for U.S. citizens?
     
  11. MacNut macrumors Core

    MacNut

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    #11
    Both programs go against the constitution and our laws. If we are stopping one we need to stop the other. Feinstein knows of both but is only mad about one.
     
  12. mobilehaathi macrumors G3

    mobilehaathi

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    #12
    Ahh, I appreciate your straight response to my ambiguous query.

    There are far too many sick and powerful people who would gladly justify torture if it 'worked.'
     
  13. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #13
    I think those sick and powerful people want to torture, in many cases, to keep their own populace scared of them (ie- many dictatorships). I don't think for a second they believe they will get any useful information out of it.

    It's scary that our nation has traded in our rights for some temporary security. It's exactly what any terrorist would want to happen to us after an attack.
     
  14. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #14
    did you mean PERCEIVED security?
     
  15. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #15
    Again you're trying to conflate the two issues into a single argument, I would guess in a vain attempt to block the reality that the United States violated International and Constitutional law.

    They are separate issues that should get a separate evaluation as to their legality. Keep in mind, the NSA compiled vast swaths of information, but the CIA tortured people and lied about it.

    Sure, both programs were violations of US law and I don't support either one, but it's possible for someone in Congress to agree with one and not the other. Your attempt to find hypocrisy rings a false note as does your ad hominem. Who cares about Feinstein, the fact is the CIA tortured people and lied to the White House, Congress and the American people. It created leaks of false information for journalists in an attempt to blunt criticism. It lied about the number of people and where people were being tortured. Some interrogators didn't have any experience.

    Looking back on this issue, the liberal forum members who rejected torture and said it was illegal and didn't work were right. Everyone who carried the CIA's water were wrong. And, it's probably time for those who made the latter argument to do a little soul searching about why they're so incredulous.
     
  16. 63dot thread starter macrumors 603

    63dot

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    #16
    The terrorists know they can't defeat us militarily but they could try and make us give up who we are and what principles we stand for. Our incursion into Iraq against WMDs, and possibly larger motive of oil, certainly doesn't paint us as the good guy here. What principles do we have left that we can use as proof we have any moral high ground?

    It's interesting to say we should be better than ISIS or Al Qaeda, which is the obvious, but what do we do about the torture we most assuredly took part in? How far could Bush and Powell, and Congress, go and say they simply did not get fed the right intelligence?

    We have to get back to a place where we had higher principles (ie- Carter reforming the Nixon era CIA).

    But as for finding issue with torture and not the NSA spying, I suppose that's possible but not likely or defensible.
     
  17. tgara macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    I wouldn't be so quick to make that conclusion. The report has many flaws and is, unfortunately, highly politicized. It was written entirely by the committee’s Democratic staff. The investigation included no interviews, and is based only on a review of documents. Because the report lacks Republican co-authors or interviews of people who ran the enhanced-interrogation program, it has very little credibility IMHO.

    It's sad because it didn't have to be this way. There are congressional Republicans who have problems with the enhanced-interrogation program and wanted an honest, bipartisan assessment of it. This is why all but one Republican member of the Senate Intelligence Committee voted to approve the probe in March 2009. However, all of the committee’s GOP members withdrew their support six months later when it became clear that this inquiry would be a witch hunt against the Bush administration and the CIA and not a balanced, bipartisan investigation. The American public deserves better.

    I would note that Jose Rodriguez, the guy who ran the enhanced interrogation program, had a piece in the Washington Post recently. It's worth reading if nothing else to show how politicians will support or condemn the CIA or NSA depending on the political climate at the time.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...418da2-7bda-11e4-84d4-7c896b90abdc_story.html
     
  18. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #18
    Feinstein--that vile old hag--has been NSA's greatest cheerleader for spying on Americans. She only became cantankerous when she learned the CIA was spying on her.
     
  19. rdowns macrumors Penryn

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    #19
    I can't believe John McCain spoke out against torture and picked Sarah Palin as his VP running mate.

    See, I can take two wholly unrelated things and string them together too. :rolleyes:
     
  20. Peace macrumors Core

    Peace

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    #20
    No no no.

    Those are both torture.


    ;)
     
  21. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #21
    First, the lack of Republic co-authors is unimportant. The attempt to find some bi-partisan balance does not make for a good report and arguably, Republican authors might have tried to squash information that might make their party look bad.

    Moreover, from Republican Sen. John McCain on the floor of the Senate:

    As for interviews, certainly that would be important, but on the other hand, those interviews will include people trying to muddy the waters or deflect blame.



    It's sad because it didn't have to be this way. There are congressional Republicans who have problems with the enhanced-interrogation program and wanted an honest, bipartisan assessment of it. This is why all but one Republican member of the Senate Intelligence Committee voted to approve the probe in March 2009. However, all of the committee’s GOP members withdrew their support six months later when it became clear that this inquiry would be a witch hunt against the Bush administration and the CIA and not a balanced, bipartisan investigation. The American public deserves better.

    I read that piece and it strikes me as significant that the CIA didn't push back against a frightened Congress by outlining the limitations of law. But, instead the CIA trusted the legal opinions coming out of the White House.

    Keep in mind, I've said before that members of Senate and House deserve their own section of hell for their role in these programs, since they pushed for the use of "enhanced interrogation techniques" and didn't push against the White House when it became clear that the CIA was shuttling people all over the world so they could be tortured. That said, the CIA was the agency that tortured people.

    The fact that it may or may not have provided information about terror attacks is not a mitigating factor. The CIA tortured people.

    If there was any justice, the architects of this program and the interrogators would go to jail.
     
  22. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #22
    yeah, because democrats are not biased at all & would not attempt to squash anything that made THEM look bad :rolleyes:
     
  23. lannister80 macrumors 6502

    lannister80

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    #23
    What NSA spying? They throw out anything related to Americans once they come across it.

    Are you not familiar with sigint? It's a big 'ol dragnet, and you sort the **** out later.

    Tell you what: Find me an American on American soil (i.e. someone who is not legally allowed to be spyed on by NSA) who was busted/arrested/anything else due to info the NSA collected.
     
  24. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #24
    It's interesting to see how conservatives have run for the only solid ground they can find: partisan bickering.
     
  25. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #25
    Mostly Libertarian, but thanks for the irony.
     

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