CIA tortured me, says Iran envoy

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Lord Blackadder, Apr 7, 2007.

  1. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #1
    I don't know what to make of this right now...though I'm angry that these Iranians are still being held incommunicado.

    But Iraq is rife with kidnappings, often perpetrated by groups with close ties to the Iraqi police, government and army...this could be genuine, or more Iranian propaganda.
     
  2. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #2
    Yes, I saw that, and was going to bring it up in relation to the Navy crew's claims of mistreatment. If true, it certainly raises the irony stakes, doesn't it? :rolleyes:
     
  3. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #3
    I think the "irony stakes" are already gratuitous; the CIA could hardly get dirtier in terms of reputation.

    But I wonder if this is a case of the Iranians playing off that or not - and I wonder if Iran will choose to confront the US over the Iranians being held captive. It would be good for them and bad for us, since Bush is doubtless not clever enough to realize that those 5 Iranians aren't worth keeping in the light of recent events.
     
  4. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

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    #4
    If the CIA really tortured him, he'd not be running around talking about it. I vote Iranian propaganda.
     
  5. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #5
    The sad fact is that we pay our politicians huge sums of money and give them virtually unlimited resources to deal with these kind of issues to our best advantage, but this shower of incompetent, vainglorious twats on both sides of the Atlantic keep squandering those resources on idiotic and dangerous adventures which only serve to compromise our future and that of our children. It's time they did the job they were employed for and stop fart-arsing around, or step down and admit they aren't up to it.
     
  6. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #6
    Don't you think they know how not to leave him crippled?
     
  7. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #7
    First off, nothing he says can be independently confirmed. It could very well have been done by Iraqis hostile to Iran (there are lots of them), or made up entirely. Iran blames the US for their embassy being raided, but they are far from popular in Iraq.

    I'm inclined to think that Iran will blame coalition nations rather than Iraqis because such claims will have more traction with others in the Middle East.

    That's not to say I don't think the CIA could have been involved, but they are such an obvious target for this kind of claim it behooves us to look at every possibility.
     
  8. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

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    #8
    I'm not talking about physical, although you're right, someone with talent shouldn't leave permanent marks.
     
  9. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #9
    Don't you mean some satanic, moron with an 8th grade education and a bad drug habit along with firearms violations? Blackwater and the CIA seem fond of hiring them at least....
     
  10. OldCorpse macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

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    #10
    Again people are missing the point here. We can't say one way or another - this may be true or 100% Iranian propaganda.

    Rather the point is that we have to argue over this at all! We have fallen so low, that it is entirely plausible for any fair minded human being to believe that the goverment of the U.S.A kidnapps and tortures diplomats. If an outlaw nation does that, we take that for granted, but I was hoping that our moral authority was greater than Iran's. These days, they are co-equal in their moral standing - both capable of despicable criminal actions at a drop of a hat. Go, U.S.A., the light of nations! Land of the free! Home of the brave!

    In fact, there is nothing that could be said about some purported U.S. action, no matter how evil, no matter how vicious, no matter how low, and it wouldn't surprise me one bit given this crew in the White House.
     
  11. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #11
    Your mistake is to imagine this has not been going on for decades.
     
  12. OldCorpse macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

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    #12
    Hardly. While the CIA has been a nefarious influence for decades, we have definitely hit a new low. Simple example: in Iraq, currently, we have participated in practices such as the raping of little boys in front of their parents, as a means of extracting information (information they didn't have, since these were often people randomly imprisoned). This surprises me not at all given that this adminstration has deliberately advocated re-writing and ignoring laws prohibiting inhumane treatment of prisoners (the reinterpretation of the Geneva Convention was merely one example). Now ask yourself: would it surprise and shock you if it happened under Clinton? Why, yes it would (btw. we are still in the Balkans after Clinton's war there).

    That is a pretty big difference. Furthermore, any scholar of our goverment practices would agree that what this administration has done has been quite unprecendeced in many ways. This official approach wrt. to torture has been unprecedenced - and precisely why they had to re-write or break laws.

    Finally, the test of that can be had also in the area of public opinion - world wide. Vast numbers of people would now agree that the U.S. does horrendous things in Gitmo, Iraq, and in the world-wide kidnapping campaign. The same people would readily admit that they would not believe it would happen under past administrations. There is a reason why our standing in the world has fallen - and that is an objective fact, borne out by numerous polls... so it's not like "it was always thus".

    My point was that we've fallen really low in moral authority - we used to have some once upon a time. Bush has totally destroyed it, worldwide - and that's a fact. Once upon a time, the world happily took our word against the word of outlaw regimes. Today, they no longer do. And that was my point... how very low we've fallen.
     
  13. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #13
    That is exactly it: this administration has tried to make the sort of routine mistreatment/torture officially sanctioned. That's the real difference. The behaviour itself has been going on for decades.
     
  14. OldCorpse macrumors 65816

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    #14
    It's simply factually incorrect. What this administration has done, has been far worse. Again - f.ex. under Clinton: we did not participate in the rape of boys in front of their parents in order to extract information. Under Bush, we've done that, and more. Just the facts. Same way that even in WWII, while we've done our share of mistreating and brutalizing, we were not in the same league as the Nazis (either by quantity or quality). There was a difference in conduct and ethical standards and practices between U.S. troops in WWII and the Nazis. Same here. There is a vast difference in conduct between past administrations and the current one.
     
  15. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #15
    We were talking about kidnapping and mistreating diplomats here, not raping young boys in front of their parents. I would imagine that the various regime changes in Central and South America and elsewhere engineered or assisted by the CIA over the years were likewise accompanied by a certain amount of mistreatment of high officials. I'm certainly not drawing parallels between US troops in WW2 and the Nazis or the Japanese.
     
  16. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #16
    Just to make the point clear - it is not the policy of the Bush administration to rape little boys. It is the cutting of red tape by the Bush Administration that has allowed for abuse.

    And as skunk said, we are discussing the mistreatment of diplomats, a claim made by an Iranian diplomat which could be a lie and is probably totally unverifiable anyway. Our willingness, even desire (in the case of some of us) to belive every dirty story concerning the CIA is very convenient for some people.
     
  17. OldCorpse macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

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    #17
    No manual specifies that particular action, so it's not a policy anymore than any specific action is a policy anyhow - it just is not that specific. The policy rather, is the deliberate loosening of the laws to in practice give a totally free hand to our operatives - and these are the predictable results, in other words policy results.

    I'm not aware of any instance of U.S. operatives directly kindnapping foreign diplomats during Clinton's administration - or Bush Sr., or Carter. Not even under Reagan, where we waged a dirty war in Central America - our forces did not that I am aware of kindapp any diplomats.

    This is not about "eagerness" to believe the worst about our side. It is about a realistic assessment of likelyhood. Under Clinton, I'd be very surprised to hear that we kidnapped and tortured a foreign diplomat - but not under Bush Jr. I do that not with eagerness, but with sadness at how low we've fallen.
     
  18. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #18
    I wonder just how much truth is behind the Iranians' claims that the people captured in Iraq were "diplomats". It may be easily confirmable based on their previous public appearances, or they may be shady characters who cannot be firmly connected to any previous diplomatic activity. Or they may be Revolutionary Guardsmen with no diplomatic credentials. Likewise the Iranian diplomat "tortured by the CIA" has provided us with no useful info to judge his claim.

    I agree that Bush Jr., represents a new low of course, and thses stories would have been dismissed during the Clinton administration.
     
  19. OldCorpse macrumors 65816

    OldCorpse

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    #19
    Well, it doesn't happen often, but we are lucky in this case - in that your question can actually be settled 100% - the Iranians were exactly where they were supposed to be and they were there at the express official invitation of the Iraqi government. That, settles it. In fact, the Iraqis to this day are demanding that the U.S. release these people.
     
  20. Lord Blackadder thread starter macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #20
    It isn't quite that transparent in my mind (in terms of their identity), but their presence in an Iranian liason office on an official visit makes it clear they should not have been siezed. I completely agee we had no legal right to nab them, and even less keep them.

    What I really don't understand is why this is not in every newspaper headline - and why the Iranians aren't more vocal about it - an appeal to the UN for instance, whether we blocked it or not, would make some noise.
     
  21. OldCorpse macrumors 65816

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    #21
    Actually, the Iranians have turned to the U.N. It's now a two way tussle between the U.S. on the one side and Iran, U.N. and Iraq on the other. It appears that the law is on the side of the three parties of Iran, Iraq (which agrees with Iran) and the U.N. Meanwhile, we may not have the law on our side (or justice, or decency or anything else), but we do have one thing on our side: we are holding the men in question, and we have the brute force to claim that might makes right. So there. As to newspapers... well, smaller papers cover it (particularly in the Middle East, where our reputation is rock bottom anyway), but the mainstream "liberal" press usually skips stuff like this. Just a disgrace all the way around.
     
  22. solvs macrumors 603

    solvs

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    #22
    Exactly. We actually worse, because look at how well they treated the Brits they captured. Even if they were threatened and thought they might die, they were still treated better than we treat our prisoners. Many of whom we don't let go. As we complain about how poorly they got treated. We have no moral authority anymore, and even if Iran did half of what we did, what right would we have to complain? This is the main argument we make during those times when we hear about things like Abu Gahrib and Gitmo, which sadly often falls on deaf ears.

    I don't know if I believe it either, but the very fact that I'm not sure makes me think we aren't doing this right.
     
  23. princealfie macrumors 68030

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    #24
    Oh really? Hmm... Shalt we invoke our famous pal here:

    [​IMG]
     
  24. obeygiant macrumors 68040

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