Confederate Flag flagged for removal

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by SwiftLives, Jun 22, 2015.

  1. SwiftLives macrumors 65816

    SwiftLives

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    #1
    I'd love to tell you the long, rich history of the Confederate Flag at the South Carolina Statehouse. Except it isn't as long or as rich as you might think. It hasn't been there since the Civil War. No, instead it was put up in 1962, allegedly for the Civil War Centennial, but very likely as a middle finger during the Civil Rights movement. Originally, it flew on top of the Statehouse. You had the American Flag, the South Carolina flag, and the Confederate Flag underneath it. In the late 1990s, then Governor David Beasley (Think Used Car Salesman) tried to get lawmakers to take it down.

    That pissed off this state so much, they elected a Democrat for a term. A Democrat. In South Carolina. Let that sink in for a minute.

    Governor Jim Hodges, along with Charleston Representatives Glenn McConnell and Robert Ford, engineered a compromise. (I should mention that Robert Ford is an African American Democrat.) The votes just weren't there to take down the flag entirely. So they moved it to the Confederate memorial in front of the statehouse. (And, incidentally, replaced it with a more historically-accurate square flag instead of a rectangular banner.) But they had to do something, since it was a presidential election in 2000, and the last thing a Republican candidate needed was to have to weigh in on the insanity that is South Carolina Politics.

    Glenn McConnell is a very adamant member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans. He engineered the compromise so that removing the flag would require 2/3 affirmative vote from both the house and senate. That's quite a task in a legislature that can't agree on what day it is. Seriously - there are so few Democrats that the Republicans have to hate each other here.

    Let's fast forward to today. Nikki Haley is out Governor. Glenn McConnell is now the president of the College of Charleston. And Robert Ford was removed from office last year for buying sex toys with campaign funds.

    And most unfortunately, Senator and Reverend Clementa (Pronounced with a long 'a' at the end) Pinckney was brutally murdered in his own church. Haley, along with U.S. Senators Tim Scott and Lindsey Graham, have all called for the flag to come down. But the questions still remains whether or not the 2/3 vote is there in the House. I'm fairly certain the Senate will reach that threshold, but the House is more of a wild card.

    There are many more voices calling for the flag to come down than in 2000. Plus, the Senate is still grieving. Even the very conservative editorial page of the Post and Courier is calling for its removal.

    As it stands right now, the very same flag that Dylann Roof was waving in numerous pictures will be the first thing people see when they walk into the Capitol rotunda on Wednesday to pay their respect to Senator and Reverend Pinckney. And that's a damn shame.
     
  2. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #2
    Honest question here.

    If they had lowered the flag to half staff (not mast; the statehouse isn't a ship), would they be having calls for this, let alone the argument today?

    BL.
     
  3. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #3
    Flag is not on a pulley
     
  4. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #4
    It's unfortunate that this horrible incident is what it took for so many people to finally come to terms with what that flag really symbolizes. Just because many white southerners over the years managed to convince themselves that it represents "southern heritage" and not slavery, that doesn't make it so. White supremacists know exactly what the true meaning of that flag is, and that's why they choose to fly it. It doesn't belong on display on state property. If this ends up being the last straw to get that filthy thing removed, then at least they didn't die in vain.
     
  5. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #5
    Interesting insight about that 2/3 rule. Might not take a 2/3 majority after all. The law that requires the 2/3 majority to remove the flag can be repealed with a simple majority.
     
  6. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #6
    Plato would have issues with you dissing his Ship of state. ;)

    Yarrr! I'm a pirate, matey!
     
  7. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #7
    Interesting to note:

    The AP is now reporting that Mississippi also wants to remove their confederate flag as well. When they update the story I'll provide a link.

    BL.
     
  8. SwiftLives thread starter macrumors 65816

    SwiftLives

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    #8
    Good question.

    By law, they are not allowed to alter even the height of the confederate flag in front of the statehouse without 2/3 approval from both the house and senate.
     
  9. SwiftLives thread starter macrumors 65816

    SwiftLives

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    #9
    Walmart has announced that they are removing all Confederate Flag memorabilia from their stores. No word on whether this is permanent or if they will quietly reintroduce them when things quiet down.
     
  10. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #10
    Unless of course they change or repeal that law with a simple majority. o_O
     
  11. SwiftLives thread starter macrumors 65816

    SwiftLives

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    #11

    (I apologize. I don't know how to combine posts in the new forum).

    Clyburn FTW! I was not aware that the possibility of changing the 2/3 rule was even on the table.

    From what I understand, if this vote fails, the Governor will call a special session. If a simple majority is willing to remove the flag, they will attempt the rule change. However, there are some politicians who are dead set on keeping the flag where it is and have already threatened filibuster and/or amendments.
     
  12. haxrnick macrumors 6502a

    haxrnick

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    #12
    Nice to see Republican Nikki Haley fixing what racist Democrats started in 1962.
     
  13. iBlazed, Jun 22, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2015

    iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #13
    You really are banking on the hope that most people are too stupid to know about the party switch that occurred after the civil rights act, aren't you?

    Why don't you answer this question for us: Which party is most of the opposition to taking down the flag coming from today, in 2015?
     
  14. FrankieTDouglas macrumors 65816

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    #14
    If you want to remove the flag, fine. I don't give a **** about it either way, but I do understand both perspectives relating to it. But it's unfortunate that people seize upon tragedies and weakened emotions to make political motions. How many times has our government quickly put policies through in the wake of regional or national trauma? We still have to contend with the Patriot Act and the TSA thanks for expedited governmental votes before the dust had even truly settled in New York.
     
  15. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #15
    They'll have to do more than just remove it, they'll need to redesign their state flag.
     
  16. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #16
    This is why, in all honesty, I'm of two minds of the removal of the flag.

    I say that, because it reminds me of the issue we had 15 to 20 years ago with the Ted Turnerization of Looney Toons. I don't know if anyone in the USA has noticed, but even when seeing some of the classic Looney Toons on Cartoon Network or Boomerang! in the US, have you noticed the lack of Foghorn Leghorn or Speedy Gonzales cartoons? When was the last time anyone saw Bugs Nips the Nips? There was a certain one where Elmer Fudd was a Canadian Mountie, and actually captured Bugs Bunny, and while tied to the stake in front of a firing squad, Elmer asks Bugs the following:

    Elmer: Have any last requests?
    Bugs: Well, I wish... I wish... (Bugs starts dancing) I wish I was in Dixie, Hooray! Hooray!

    Next Scene has him, Elmer, and the firing squad singing Dixieland in blackface.

    While I know that it was offensive and I get that, we've become a bit PC with it, that we are trying so hard to correct it that we basically rewrite our history, which is the wrong thing to do. We need to keep it in our history, but also teach why it is wrong. Thankfully, we haven't gone as far as Germany or France, where you can't even sell, buy or trade anything that has the image of the swastika on it (even though it means something completely different in India or to the Hindu religion).

    But outright removal of it I think is going too far. Glorifying it (the other extreme) is too far. We need to strike some sort of balance with it; explain why it is wrong, but also don't remove it from our history, as if it never existed.

    BL.
     
  17. SwiftLives thread starter macrumors 65816

    SwiftLives

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    #17
    Yup. It was the Dixiecrats who put it up there. Today, they are known as "conservatives."

    I will note that SC had a Democratic Governor and Senate at the time the flag was moved from on top of the statehouse to the memorial in front in 2000. And now it's prominent Republican leaders who are calling for it to come down. (Although it really is a bi-partisan effort.)
     
  18. SwiftLives thread starter macrumors 65816

    SwiftLives

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    #18
    (I shortened your quote a bit. Just acknowledging that.)

    I agree. As of right now, the debate in SC is not whether to remove it completely, just remove the flag from the statehouse. But I agree, there is a slippery slope here. I suspect we are going to hear calls for removals of many more monuments. John C Calhoun is pretty reviled. His statue in Marion Square in Charleston was moved to an 80ft pedestal because people kept vandalizing it in the 1960s.

    But I think we should go in the opposite direction. Let's build monuments in the South to Union and African American soldiers. Whether or not people want to admit it, the Union's victory over the confederacy was absolutely the best thing to happen to the economically depressed South at the time. We should celebrate that. And having monuments to more Union troops would not dishonor the confederates, and it would change the narrative of the memorials from being so one-sided.
     
  19. JSB1540 macrumors 6502

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    #19
    Love this quote:
    "The way things stand now? Well, of course not all Republicans are racist. However, if you do happen to be a super crazy racist, you’re probably not voting Democrat these days."
     
  20. iBlazed macrumors 68000

    iBlazed

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    #20
    Probably going to be quite difficult to do that in regions where the Civil War is referred to as "The War of Northern Aggression".
     
  21. Prof., Jun 22, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015

    Prof. macrumors 601

    Prof.

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    #21
    I like this one:

    "I'm not saying all Republicans are racist, but if you happen to be racist, you will feel right at home within the Republican party."
     
  22. jnpy!$4g3cwk macrumors 65816

    jnpy!$4g3cwk

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    #22
    I understand your point, but, I disagree in this specific case. And that is precisely because the Confederate Battle Flag was reinvented during my childhood specifically as a racist flag, and, I was forced to live with nearby public institutions with said flag decorations when I lived in the South. That is the history. That flag has nothing whatsoever to do with someone's southern family heritage of eating black-eyed peas at New Years or whatever. Good riddance (to the Battle Flag -- I'll take the peas).
     
  23. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #23
    That is the reason why I agree with the removal. It definitely was repurposed for something else entirely than its original intent. Just like with the swastika. It was originally used in the Hindu religion as a sign of peace. It was totally commandeered for something else by the Nazis. Same thing with ISIS; it now brings primary reference to those in the Middle East with its self-proclaimed caliphate, rather than the Egyptian goddess.

    My parents were raised with near public institutions with it as well, and they sure as hell didn't like it either, and I don't blame them. And while they've had to live through it, I can call myself lucky to be disconnected from it, as those issues and its reinvention occurred before I was born. Yes, I was subject to racial taunts and slurs in the south, but I rose above it, thanks to having a much cooler head, plus being raised further up north than them.

    So while I have no problem with the flag, the true story and history need to be told along with it, racism included, and why it is wrong. I can see both sides, with caveats on the side against removing it.

    BL.
     
  24. shinji macrumors 65816

    shinji

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    #24
    When people say the flag was reinvented or repurposed for something other than its original intent, I'm curious. Was the original intent of the Confederate Battle Flag something positive? What was it, if not killing northerners and protecting the institution of slavery?
     
  25. FieldingMellish Suspended

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    #25
    And what about Democrat and former KKK member Robert Byrd?
     

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