Confused about the left and religion

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Herdfan, Jun 17, 2016.

  1. Herdfan macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    #1
    So it seems that many on the left despise the religious right. (Note I said many, not all) The reasons are probably related to LGBT, gender identification, drug legalization etc. The specific reasons are not really important and this country was founded on freedom of religion so you can be a believer or not. Doesn't matter.

    But for the purposes of this discussion, let's focus on the LGBT movement. The Religious Right (RR) is against it which riles up the Secular Progressives (SP). Actually you don't even have to be that far right to rile up the SP's as sometimes something as simple as holding a school program in a building that is designated as a church is enough to fire them up.

    So we know the SP's despise the RR.

    Yet, many on the left want to let as many people of Middle Eastern and Latino heritage into this country as possible. Yet these 2 groups are some of the most religious in the world with the Middle Eastern's being Muslim and the Latino's being Catholic. Oppose letting them in and you are branded a racist.

    Muslim's that believe in Sharia Law would make Jerry Falwell seem almost Atheist in comparison.

    So a Christian who doesn't want to bake a cake for a gay couple is a horrible person, yet when a Muslim shoots up a gay club, guns are the problem.

    Having a hard time wrapping my head around this.
     
  2. Renzatic, Jun 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016

    Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Location:
    Gramps, what the hell am I paying you for?
    #2
    Try to find one left-leaning person who isn't a crazy wingnut that doesn't think Omar Mateen was a piece of scum, and I'll continue this argument farther.
     
  3. Herdfan thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    #3
    He is, but that is not the point.

    When a Christian couple refuses to bake a cake, their religion is blamed. Omar shoots up a gay club and guns are blamed. Why is his religion NOT blamed?
     
  4. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Location:
    Gramps, what the hell am I paying you for?
    #4
    His religion is blamed. Islam does have a tendency to produce these people, though I wouldn't go so far to say that ALL Muslims are potential terrorists.

    The gun? It wasn't the cause of all this violence. That blame lies solely with Omar Mateen. That said, I could make the argument that the gun did easily enable him to kill 50 people, and wound 50 more.

    I don't think we should ban guns outright, whether rifles our handguns. But I do think we should do more than shrug our shoulders, say "that's the price we pay for freedom", then do nothing.
     
  5. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Location:
    PDX
    #5
    Oh, this thread is gonna be fun...To the point, both the cake-maker and the Shooter are using their Religion to justify hate. The fact that the latters' actions were much more extreme does not make the point any less true. Most people, Liberal or Conservative don't care for hate much...
     
  6. Herdfan thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2011
    #6
    I think there is a huge difference in the levels of hate in those 2 situations. Not even sure the cake-makers hate gays as there is a Christian saying: Love the sinner, hate the sin. In their case, it was just something they didn't want to be part of. I do find it odd that several stealth videos were made where Muslim bakers also refused to bake cakes for gay couples, but they don't end up on MSNBC because it doesn't fit the narrative.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 17, 2016 ---
    No they are not. My daughter swims with a couple of Muslims and both families love the US.

    It did. No question. I do worry though that if guns were not available, those wishing to do harm would resort to other methods that have the potential to do more harm. For instance, driving a car into a crowd or making homemade bombs. If someone has it in them to harm others, they will find a way to do so.

    I also agree. The NRA is a joke, but I do believe that if some on the left could confiscate every gun in the US, they would. I would like to see a Constitutional Amendment that replaces the 2nd and has both protections for ownership, but also reasonable restrictions. Unfortunately neither side would go for it.
     
  7. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Location:
    PDX
    #7
    I was not aware of the Muslim baker scenarios...not cool either. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander...still, no-one should be able to use their religious beliefs to be a dick to their fellow man. Emulate your God of choice...chances are you don't consider you God to be a dick, right?
     
  8. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Location:
    Somewhere
    #8
    The refusal to bake a cake is based on their interpretation of their religion, and doesn't require anything other than owning a bakery. Shooting gay people may also have been motivated by his interpretation of his religion, but he couldn't have done it without easy access to guns. Also while this particular incident may have been motivated by religion, it is just another in a long line of mass shootings that have nothing to do with any consistent ideology, some are religiously motivated, some are motivated by a grudge, others are just randomly done by a crazy person for no particular reason. The cake only has a religious aspect, but shooting up a club while the motive may be religious has many other aspects the main one being the fact that he had easy access to weapons to act on his hatred.
     
  9. Meister, Jun 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016

    Meister Suspended

    Meister

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2013
    #9
    All the sane people blame Omar personally first, his religious fanatism second and the Washington elite who created and sponsors terrorism third.

    Insane people want more "gun free zones" aka "safe spaces for killers" and peoples constitutional rights to be taken.

    As you can see we are now at a point where it's the sane people versus the lunatics.

    You can't have any reasonable arguments with lunatics, hence the current political climate of senseless insults.
     
  10. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario
    #10
    The left is afraid their own will eat them if they criticize anyone with more than a tan complexion. The left is actually the racist group and they don't want that revealed.
     
  11. samiwas, Jun 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016

    samiwas macrumors 65816

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2006
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    #11
    You're having a hard time wrapping your head around it because most of it is completely made up and completely out of left field. Actually, right field is probably more accurate.
     
  12. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Location:
    Gramps, what the hell am I paying you for?
    #12
    Exactly. Let's not make the innocent guilty by mere superficial associations.

    They likely would. While I easily could argue that certain people really shouldn't be allowed to have a gun, that doesn't address the fact that we seem to have this abundance of overly violent people in the country who too quickly turn to mass murder as a way to air their ills. While guns do enable this violence, they're not the root cause of it. If they were, countries like Switzerland, which have a decently high gun per capita rate, would suffer from proportionally comparable gun crime statistic.

    ...but they don't. Mass shootings at the levels we play host to seem to be a distinctly American phenomenon. So what is it about us that makes us such a violent exception?

    At some point, we as a society will have to realize that there's a lot of space between all or nothing. From the way things have been stirring on the news, I think Orlando might finally mark the tipping point.
     
  13. SwiftLives macrumors 65816

    SwiftLives

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2001
    Location:
    Charleston, SC
    #13
    Cake bikers—regardless of religion—are hired clients as long as money changes hands. The ingredients used to make a cake for a gay wedding are exactly the same as for a straight wedding...unless there's some new homosexual flour I haven't yet heard about. Unless the baker receives an invitation to the wedding and zero money changes hands, then they are not a participant and they do not get to discriminate against a same sex couple anymore than a black couple, mixed race couple, or straight couple.
     
  14. DrewDaHilp1 macrumors 6502a

    DrewDaHilp1

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    All Your Memes Are Belong to US
    #14
    Not baking a cake is hate? Let the market decide. Hey this bigot won't bake me a cake because I'm gay, let me go to this other bakery and have them bake me one. Oh they won't either and they are the only two bakeries in town. Sweet let me open my own bakery bake cakes for every one and put those other two out of business vs force bakery via threat of the government to bake me a cake and pay an absurd amount of money because my feels were hurt.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 17, 2016 ---
    He could have easily chosen to use matches and gas. Google Happy Land.
     
  15. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Location:
    Gramps, what the hell am I paying you for?
    #15
    The reason it's a big deal is because it violates the Civil Rights Act of '64. You may hate that, but remember, it protects you as well. Unless you have to make extreme exceptions to accommodate someone (which, in this case, putting two little chick or dude figures on top of a cake wouldn't be considered an extreme exception), as a public enterprise, you have to serve the public, regardless of how you feel about some parts of the public that visit your shop.

    It doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, Christian, Muslim, or Hindu. You want a cake, you get a cake.
     
  16. DrewDaHilp1 macrumors 6502a

    DrewDaHilp1

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    All Your Memes Are Belong to US
    #16
    See that's the difference between leftist and those on the right, one side loves to give the government the monopoly on force and use it to do their bidding, the other is more blase and willing to let the free market decide.

    Sweet so tell me a place I can go with my firearm and not be denied service? If I am can I sue because they are violating my Civil Rights?
     
  17. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Location:
    Gramps, what the hell am I paying you for?
    #17
    Do you really want the free market to decide what rights we have? The Bill of Rights is a federal mandate, after all. Do you want to pop it out of it's class case at the National Archives and wipe our collective asses with it because it's pushed upon us by threat of force?

    No, because you're always free to leave your gun in your car if you want to eat in a town that has a blanket wide gun ban in restaurants. On the flipside of that argument, black people can't magically turn themselves white if they suddenly find themselves in a situation where the color of their skin is inconvenient obstacle from being allowed to eat somewhere.

    This isn't what you're not accounting for. Your gun is a choice. It's not a fundamental, immutable part of you. Being black, white, gay, straight, blah blah blah cannot be changed on a whim. No one should be made to suffer because of who they are.
     
  18. DrewDaHilp1 macrumors 6502a

    DrewDaHilp1

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2009
    Location:
    All Your Memes Are Belong to US
    #18
    I self identify as a holster. I'm discriminated against, I demand compensation for hurt feelz.
     
  19. thekev macrumors 604

    thekev

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2010
    #19
    Both Muslims and Middle Eastern people in general are pretty diverse. It's important to distinguish between the two, because a statistically significant number of Muslims would be regarded as Black or Asian. Contrary to Borat's portrayal, people from Kazakhstan are more likely to be regarded as Asian than Middle Eastern (their accent don't resemble those of Middle Eastern countries).

    According to wiki Kazakhstan is 70% Muslim
    .
    They list sources, and yet somehow that isn't enough to satisfy....the hunger...


    [​IMG]


    I suppose another example would be Iranian immigrants, many of which settled in Southern California when the shah was in power. Part of Westwood is colloquially referred to as Tehrangeles because it supposedly has the highest concentration of Iranian expatriates in the US. You might be surprised that it's both fairly liberal and has a fairly high level of religious diversity. It includes a lot of former Jewish Iranian nationals.

    There's another area near Los Feliz with a very high concentration of Armenian immigrants, and of course there's always Costa Mesa.

    Consider Islam on its own though. NPR (first thing to come up on google) suggests a worldwide Muslim population of 1.6 billion. I haven't found any estimates under 1 billion. This may of course include a large number of closet atheists residing in predominantly Muslim countries. Many of them basically own a Quran as a Nowruz table (can't remember what they're called so let's go with that) decoration. I really wish the habit of including goldfish would go away though.

    I'm not sure I could convince you of the fallacy in equating Middle Eastern appearance + Muslim as a potential inroad for Sharia law, but you should know that it's not always easily discernible. People can of course lie about their religion, and travel from seemingly innocuous countries (eg Kazakhstan, Singapore, India, Indonesia).

    Attempting to cull visas granted to possible radicals is going to require more than just identifying Brown people. For what it's worth I've been flagged for extra inspection at the airport. Somehow it wasn't when I had long hair. I strongly suspect it's the name.
     
  20. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Location:
    Gramps, what the hell am I paying you for?
    #20
    It must be rough being named Kevin Fulonjihadi in this day and age.
     
  21. mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    #21

    You could have just started the thread with this comment instead of that fist bizzaro post that's hard to follow. What you're ignoring about the "cake" issue is that the Christian couple is using their religion as the reason to not bake it. So it isn't that the left is blaming the religion as much as the couple using religion to deny others. The Orlando shooter is also using his religion as an excuse to shoot up the club.

    What you're doing is taking two difference examples (X) and trying to pigeonhole them into a one answer fits the whole reason for X, when in reality both situations happened for multiple reasons. The Christian couple while using religion as their reason for not working with a gay couple, is also using that religion to hide their bigotry towards others they disagree with. The Orlando shooter used his religion as an excuse to kill others but also as a way to redeem himself in his mind to that religion for going against it because of (what seems to be) his own inner demons of struggling that he was possibly gay. The left's argument about the guns is that while he may have still gotten them through illegal means, the system made it relatively easy for him to get in the first place. Had it been harder, he might not have been able to get the weapons he had and possibly that action would have saved many more lives. Whether or not that's true is entirely a guess but a valid one none the less.
     
  22. dec., Jun 17, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2016

    dec. Suspended

    dec.

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2012
    Location:
    Toronto
    #22
    I wouldn't start trying to "wrap your head" around stuff that you've convinced yourself of to be the conclusion in first place, as it's not true. What a waste of time and effort :)

    I probably would qualify to some degree to be part of the "SP" that you've mentioned, although I'd throw in some partial Libertarian, Nihilist and non-"Theist" for completion (I ignore the term "atheist", as the """believers""" who don't have the intellectual capability to imagine a life without a "religious" system to be possible have tainted that term). The first mistake that you are making is that "SP despise the RR", it's not true at all. Sure, I think that those freaks who think that they should apply their little mythology, no matter if "christian", "jewish", "satanic" or "islamic" on everyone else are just completely insane, but I don't despise them. I can understand that it takes a lot for the average "muslim" or "christian" to live next door to a gay couple like us, having been raised and told that their ideology views us as """sinners""", but ultimately it's up to them. I cannot re-brainwash and I don't care about it. And the majority of "muslims" that are entering the country do submit to the American (Canadian) culture.

    A "christian" who denies to bake a cake to a certain demography is simply acting against anti-discrimination laws. These laws aren't there just for fun or to be laughed at by some fans-of-mythologies-who-think-they-are-exempt-of-everything-because-of-"god". I do understand that the recent changes in society might be somewhat difficult for some to accept, but hopefully those cake-baking cases (which have been misrepresented by the right wing, of course) will help conservatives in their career choices. They will need to ask themselves if they are mentally capable of serving the public in its entirety or if their "religion" cripples them to the point where they are unable to provide service to that public.

    We don't want "sharia" law, we don't want "christian" law, we don't want any of that garbage. And letting in "muslims" does not imply that anyone wants to introduce any of these laws.
     
  23. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2003
    Location:
    PDX
    #23
    I'm still waiting for an explanation of why God is not a dick. Mysterious ways don't count...
     
  24. lowendlinux, Jun 18, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2016

    lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2014
    Location:
    North Country (way upstate NY)
    #24
    I'm against religion because I fought a war over it it seems they can't keep it to themselves and since they can't I'd like it to be far less prominent. I don't want to bring as many people in as possible but we had to go screw up their countries so we ought to help fix it too. But my biggest issue with the whole immigration thing is the "well our forefathers came here legally thew should too" but the immigration laws are vastly different now than in the past so its a disingenuous argument. I'm all for killing H1B I know the people are smart and sometimes the best but if you don't grow your own people or get universities producing the people you need you will consistently refuse the quality of the pool. The thing is as always there no silver bullet bumper sticker solution to our problems and anyone who says so is not telling the truth. If we continue to demonize commie lefties and right wing nuts we will continue down the path to our shared destruction.
     
  25. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2002
    Location:
    Republic of Ukistan
    #25
    Which war was that?
     

Share This Page