Conservatism bad for America? The evidence seems to point that way.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Thomas Veil, Mar 25, 2011.

  1. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #1
    I'm just quoting a part. The list does go on...

    The full list.

    This isn't really just evidence that conservatism is bad for America...it's also evidence that those in the Great American Heartland have been thoroughly bamboozled into voting against their own interests. Look at those lists of states. With only a few exceptions, every single one of them is reliably red.
     
  2. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #2
    The data coming out of the 2010 census is very illuminating.

    One highlight that really grabbed me is that people with a college degree are much less likely to get divorced. Looks like the "ivory tower" is actually good for one's marital health.

    What that really highlights though is not just a growing gap in education but the income inequalities brought about by "right to work" states and corporate offshoring and all the other Republican goals and buzzwords of the last thirty years.

    Another point that really stands out in your post is that the states you list are mostly rural, blue collar, resource economy states. Farming, logging, fishing, coal etc. We obviously need those resources and rural areas will always be more conservative. However, by denying the people who live there access to health care, access to good education and a chance to join the knowledge economy, we're creating a permanent underclass much like has taken place in England's northeast.

    This underclass has spawned Timothy McVeigh, The Militia movement, the whackos in Waco, the bigamist mormon offshoot group, and so on and so forth.

    The future of our country lies in the nurturing and collaborative environment of our cities, of that there's no doubt. But, by ignoring the rural areas, we will always be tormented by home grown terrorism. Isolation breeds contempt.
     
  3. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #3

    I hardly think we have ignored these states, at least money wise. They are what I like to call welfare states, they get more federal dollars than they pay in.

    http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/266.html
     

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  4. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #4
    If only because getting that degree would put marriage off for a few years allowing people to mature more and not jump into an early and unfortunate commitment.

    Yet we're making college less and less affordable or even available. In California, budget cuts will again reduce the number of students admitted to the state university system. Those that are admitted will find the fees greatly increased over what students paid just a few years ago.

    More ignorance. That's exactly what America needs now. :rolleyes:
     
  5. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #5
    But Republicans love ignorance. They're proud of it. Look at Sarah Palin, for god's sake.
     
  6. IntelliUser macrumors 6502

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    Why does it matter?
    #6
    10 poorest states with the lowest median household income-
    Does that take into account cost of living AT ALL? Are we forgetting that Democratic/Leaning states are generally more expensive, in some cases MUCH more expensive than Republican/Leaning ones?

    See: http://money.cnn.com/news/storysupplement/economy/cost_of_living/

    BTW West Virginia and Arkansas are swing states [1]

    States with worst health-care systems

    West Virginia, Arkansas, Nevada are swing states[1]

    ALSO, take a look at the SECOND healthiest state in that list: UTAH!

    http://www.forbes.com/2009/11/16/un...lth-states-top_chart.html?partner=yahoohealth

    And what about Nebraska being better than New Jersey? And look, Wyoming is better than California! And Illinois! And Michigan!

    Also, According to Gallup, lack of health care coverage is high in California (Liberal), Florida (Swing), New Mexico (Democratic) too.

    States with the highest divorce rates
    Nevada (are you seriously surprised?), Arkansas, West Virginia are swing states, Main is a Democrat state. [1]

    And Texas is 31st, South Carolina 34th, North Dakota 40th, how do you explain that?
    http://www.ranker.com/list/highest-u-s-divorce-rates-by-state/taylor-ratcliff

    College degrees

    http://chronicle.com/article/Interactive-Map-Proportion-of/65009/

    Nebraska (R) > Pennsylvania (D) > Kansas (R) > California (D) > Michigan (D)


    I could go on, but I don't see the point. The pattern I see is this: the South is doing badly. Of course the South is worse off, 'cause well, it's the South! I don't see much of a relation with conservatism.

    [1] -
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_and_blue_states#Current_classification
     
  7. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #7
    I think it all needs to be taken in context. The south is not known for its high cost of living but it's also known for a constant low ranking when it comes to education. Education = More earning potential. Period.

    Utah's health status is in part due to the mormon church, but also to the fact when it comes to health, they spend more than many states. Healthcare is important to them.

    Rather than point out the anomalies of a red state/blue state comparison, one needs to examine why exceptions exist.

    I was shocked to see Idaho has such a high divorce rate. Lots of mormons there too, but then it's also a right to work state and there aren't a lot of good paying no-education jobs.



    As rdowns points out, the lowest performing states receive the most federal welfare. Throwing money at the problem obviously doesn't solve anything. However, these states need to be brought into the fold of the greater US rather than being allowed to practice exceptionalism. As long as we make fun of the yokels, they probably won't change.
     
  8. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #8
    I have a problem here with describing Republicans in general as "conservatives". If you consider the leadership, they are not at all conservative, "neo-liberal" would be more accurate (which means kind of like libertarian, but with less compassion). I believe that there are conservatives in the gop, in extreme minority numbers.
     
  9. Naimfan macrumors 68040

    Naimfan

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    #9
    +1

    :d
     
  10. MattSepeta macrumors 65816

    MattSepeta

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    #10
    your right.

    Let's ban conservatism!

    The thing is: I don't care about the figures. I care about the philosophy. I would sooner live dirt poor and free than rich as ***** under someones thumb.
     
  11. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #11
    I'd say it's a mistake to prefer dogma over facts.

    But whatever works for you. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #12
    Interesting. I'm guessing it has something to do with better communication.

    ...or any sort of facts or reality whatsoever, judging by the implication in your next statement:

     
  13. *LTD* macrumors G4

    *LTD*

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    #13
    Of course it's bad. It's bad for everyone worldwide. Why is this even a question?
     
  14. ender land macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    This is some of the worst misapplication of causation vs correlation I have ever seen.

    Alternative article titles with same data -

    "Empirical Evidence which Proves Welfare is Destroying America"
    "Empirical Evidence that Prove Starting a Civil War is Bad Years Later"

    ...

    Statistics and common sense, people.
     
  15. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #15
    Share the article and the data and let us see for ourselves.

    That said, the lists provided in the OP do not amount to conclusive evidence. They're just a talking point to help dispel conventional conservatism, but they are a long way from proving anything.
     
  16. ender land macrumors 6502a

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    #16
    I'm saying use the exact same statistics as provided in the OP, combined with the link someone shared (rdowns) on welfare statistics.

    Literally the same statistics used in the OP.
     
  17. dime21, Mar 25, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2011

    dime21 macrumors 6502

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    #17
    Too true. One could just as easily point to poverty level inner-city populations, who perform poorly in school, poorly on standardized tests, and have low college acceptance rates.... and who overwhelmingly vote Democrat. Can I then infer than voting Democrat is the result of poor education?
     
  18. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #18
    Or that red states have higher rates of births because liberals are all having abortions! :eek:
     
  19. JoeG4 macrumors 68030

    JoeG4

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    #19
    Why do people that lean right love to use capital letters, bold fonts, and !!!!!! so much? Why are they always so noisy on TV when debating? :D
     
  20. dime21 macrumors 6502

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    #20
    I find it interesting that you claim to know what the best interests of these people are. Should they not decide that for themselves? Or do think it's better for you to dictate these best interests to them? I think I know the answer...
     
  21. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #21
    Under which system are these the only alternatives? Is this another "hypothetical"? Libertarian-leaning types seem to share an oddly binary perspective, but Life isn't like that, you know.
     
  22. Sydde macrumors 68020

    Sydde

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    #22
    They seem to believe that the louder you speak, the more convincing your point is. And of course, repeat, repeat, repeat, until people start believing you. Speaking softly and challenging assertions with questions is passive-aggressive, like those namby-pamby lefties.
     
  23. Thomas Veil thread starter macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #23
    Those of us who keep track of the whack-a-doodle policies and pronunciamentos that emerge from our esteemed politicians tend to notice that most of them seem to come from the red states, and sometimes the swing states when they're red (as my state of Ohio is now). Heck, a number of threads here have become a running gag featuring states that are competing to see who can come up with the craziest threats to the middle class.

    And I did point out that there were a few exceptions in those lists. Even so, when you look at the links you provided, you mentioned the exceptions, but those links still tend to show red or red-leaning states in the bottom of the stats.

    And I think you don't.
     
  24. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #24
    Ask yourself how can the conservative message be so popular with citizens who are on the lower spectrum of wealth? No.5 is unspoken.

    1. They want your guns.
    2. They want to tax you.
    3. They want to give those immigrants or groups unlike your group a break.
    4. They want to lawyer you (laws).
    5. We just want you to vote for us, know your place and understand your lack of relative worth...
     
  25. ender land macrumors 6502a

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    #25
    You realize there is nothing supporting causation instead of correlation right?

    It is far better (but much much more difficult) to look at the actual issues at hand and look for underlying causes than just pick conclusions and find statistics which can support them.
     

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