Conservatives: What exactly is your problem with female sexuality?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by iBlue, Mar 5, 2012.

  1. iBlue, Mar 5, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2012

    iBlue macrumors Core

    iBlue

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    #1
    I started this as a question here in the republicans react to that "slut" comment thread but I would like to ask in my own thread.

    So, as I said...

    Conservatives and to whomever else it may concern: What EXACTLY is your problem with women's sexuality?

    You can claim the problem is that you don't want the financial burden but when you insinuate or outright call a woman a "slut" for having sex that demonstrates your distaste runs a lot deeper than your wallet. Especially considering the cost of a pregnancy is staggeringly more expensive than covering a pregnancy. So it's something about a woman having sex that seems to threaten the conservatives among us. Why is that?



    I'll tell you what I think. I think some men have a problem with female independence. (Unless it's convenient for said types of men.) I think some men (covertly or overtly) believe they are superior to women and because many are in a position to abuse their power they do so to suit their own agendas and ideals. How else can you explain the all-male panel at the contraceptive hearing?

    It's really frustrating to watch social progress being undermined. What, power-hungry rich old men feeling a little impotent and need to assert their dominance over women? Put these demanding women back in their place? Just like "the good old days"?
    Because when someone tries to reduce a woman to the sum of her parts and yet seeks to deny her access to self-managing that same aspect of her own life, then that is exactly how it looks.

    Why should women be shamed and punished for their biology and behaviour therein when men receive a high five for [effectively] the same things? If a man is not a "slut" for having sex then neither is a woman. If you don't apply your moral standards gender-neutrally then you should probably examine yourself for the root of why. You might not like what you uncover at the root but all the more reason to learn to think differently.


    edit: please see this post if you don't wish to read all the replies
     
  2. niuniu, Mar 5, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012

    niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #2
    White Heterosexual Christian Male.

    Always comes back to those four words. In this case female sexuality (empowerment) fell foul of the Christian and Male criteria.
     
  3. Scepticalscribe, Mar 5, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

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    #3
    Great idea for a thread. :D

    From what I can see, it is about control, especially sexual control, period. Control that is reinforced by custom, law, and attitudes that are buttressed by religious belief systems which serve to permit legal, social and cultural sanctions to be applied to women (and anyone else who is seen to deviate from this social construct, such as those who are gay).

    Thus, of course, a double standard applies - and is applied, especially to women. I never cease to be amazed at how much energy conservatives put into seeking to control peoples' - above all women's - sexual identity and sex lives, as a final, clinching definition of morality, when, of course, in any civilised society, what is understood by the term the values of civility, and social & moral mores should go far beyond that.



    Actually, unfortunately, I think it goes much further than that. The Arab world, vast tracks of sub-Saharan Africa, and much of south east Asia have pretty dismal attitudes to women as well. And, in all such places, religion is used for social and sexual control and the construction of - and dissemination - of attitudes which are deeply dismissive of and unfavourable to, women.

    Like iBlue, I love - actually I absolutely loathe, detest, abominate - the grotesque double standard of denying women access to control of their own fertility, while damning them for the consequences, culturally, socially and economically.

    In this context, the use of language is also fascinating. I have lost count of all of the insulting slang terms which can be used to describe female sexuality, or female private parts (it is almost that it is seen as a threat, which must be belittled in order to be controlled), whereas most slang terms for male private parts carry a positive connotation.
     
  4. rdowns macrumors Penryn

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    #4
    One could easily surmise that conservatives just don't like women. How else can you explain the "party of job creation" that told us they would relentlessly focus on jobs, jobs, jobs hasn't passed a jobs bill and instead, has focused on taking away the rights of women.

    They've used the budget process and faux religious arguments to attack women's rights with such things as trying to reverse the law of the land (Roe v. Wade), defunding Planned Parenthood, defunding Title X, trying to redefine rape and a fetus to try and criminalize women and handcuff medical providers. For ****'s sake, they are even against re-authorizing the Violence Against Women Act.

    We won't even talk about all the crazy state laws that have been proposed by Republican governors over the past 3 years that attack women's rights.
     
  5. niuniu macrumors 68020

    niuniu

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    #5
    Just swap Christian for the predominant religion of whatever country you're talking about ;)
     
  6. (marc) macrumors 6502a

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    #6
    Fortunately, we don't have these problems in the civilized parts of the world.
     
  7. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #7
    Be honest, how many conservatives are doing that? I can name one. Are there really so many that you had to start a thread bashing all conservatives?

    Bro, statements like this can cause you to lose a LOT of credibility.
     
  8. iBlue thread starter macrumors Core

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    #8
    Really? I can count thousands. Some may be ignorant little brats that think they're funny or just feel like being rude to women but I often hear the word "slut" bandied about in regards to a woman's sex life. Rush Limbaugh is just the most recent and has a larger platform to shout it from. It's not always that exact word but the implications are the same.
     
  9. Tomorrow macrumors 604

    Tomorrow

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    #9
    And they're all conservatives, naturally. :rolleyes:

    Look, I don't agree with what Limbaugh said any more than anybody else. The guy makes his living by rubbing people the wrong way. You and countless others are buying into his hype machine. But this is yet another thread lumping every conservative into the same boat with a lone wacko.
     
  10. iBlue thread starter macrumors Core

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    #10
    I asked a completely reasonable question. If there is a conservative around that doesn't have a problem with female sexuality and all that comes with that then by all means, speak up!
     
  11. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    The reason is that there is a broader tactic at play here - to make the term "conservative" synonymous with "racist," "homophobic," and/or "sexist."

    I consider myself a conservative? Why? Because I want to drastically reduce the size of and dependence upon government. To me - hell, perhaps only me - that is the core of the term "conservative."

    Am I in favor of gay marriage? Yes. (Why the government has any involvement in marriage is beyond me.)

    Do I give a flying **** about the color of someone's skin? No. (As I've said in other threads, I support slavery reparations with the caveat that every single race-based law is overturned.)

    Do I give a damn what what one, two or more (consenting) people do sexually in the privacy of their bedroom? God no.

    Do I support a woman's right to an abortion as outlined in Roe v. Wade? Yes.

    But back to your comment, Tomorrow, the idea is to make the term "conservative" a pejorative term. I think some of the roots of this movement is that some liberals are frustrated that the term "liberal" got hijacked in recent years to have a negative connotation, and are interested in returning the favor.
     
  12. iBlue thread starter macrumors Core

    iBlue

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    #12
    Perhaps but I used "conservative" because "republican" doesn't cover everyone who may have a problem with a woman's sexuality. I have no motive beyond using the correct word. It didn't even occur to me it might be construed as an insult. :rolleyes:
     
  13. Scepticalscribe, Mar 5, 2012
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2012

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

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    #13
    A great many conservatives hold beliefs (often quite strongly held and loudly expressed) about the appropriate role (often a specific one, confined to a limited, and/or domestic sphere) that women ought to play in society.

    These beliefs are underpinned by attitudes, - often given sturdy reinforcement by the fact that they appear to be divinely sanctioned - and some of these attitudes are informed by a distaste for, fear of, and dislike of, women. The very vocabulary - usually negative - which is used to describe women - especially women who are seen to transgress in any way from the highly constricting ideal - is a dead giveaway.

    Edit: As the term 'conservative' seems to be somewhat contested, I'll re-phrase it by saying that those who tend to espouse a more 'traditional' role for women, often have a major problem with female sexuality, which finds expression in their attitudes and the language or vocabulary they use, and they tend to see female sexuality as something which has to be controlled, by limiting women's independence - economic and sexual - and access to the public sphere, or space.

    However, there is a congruence where traditionalists and conservatives meet, as most of those with this world view, tend to vote for parties deemed 'conservative' in outlook.
     
  14. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

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    #14
    Where you find "insult" or offense anywhere in my post is beyond me. My post was devoid of emotion or rhetoric.

    Anywhos, since you bring up your word choice, what word(s), in your opinion, does accurately cover that population having a problem with female sexuality? I am genuinely curious about your opinion on that.
     
  15. Tomorrow macrumors 604

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    #15
    You asked a completely reasonable question based on a general and prejudicial view of conservatives as a whole.

    As to the second part of your post above, I'm speaking up!

    That very thing is done time and time again here. I don't mind if someone disagrees with me, but I do mind if someone bases their opinions on "facts" or generalizations which are untrue or don't have the sweeping ubiquity they would like to believe they have.

    For the record, I'm both "conservative" and "Republican." I'm not offended by the terms; I'm offended by the prejudicial mischaracterizations. What you're doing is equivalent to saying (hypothetically) that all black people are criminals because a black person robbed you once.

    Okay, since you brought that up, let's run with that for a bit:

    Suppose conservatives want to keep women in their place. Lets make this really chauvanistic - let's say that conservative males want their women to stay home, cook, clean, take care of the kids, never cut their hair, etc. Let's suppose you're actually right. Do you think those hypothetical guys DON'T want women to have sex with them?
     
  16. iBlue thread starter macrumors Core

    iBlue

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    #16
    Sorry, you said pejorative. I went the extra mile and figured a pejorative term is probably insulting. I'm not going to split hairs with you over a simple choice of words.

    And I'm not sure what you're trying to ask me.
     
  17. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    Let's try it this way: Do you stand by the premise of your OP question - that to be conservative is to have a problem with a female sexuality?

    Yes, there are some conservatives who have a problem with female sexuality, just as there are some Democrats, some Christians, some Muslims, some atheists, some movie-goers, some blacks, some Canadians, and some basketball players who have a problem with female sexuality.

    You chose the blanket term "conservative" to frame this debate - to ask your question - "Conservatives: What EXACTLY is your problem with women's sexuality?" I responded by explaining why I consider myself a conservative and lean left on social issues. So, I'll again ask - do you, iBlue, stand by the premise of your OP question - that to be conservative is to have a problem with female sexuality?

    If the question doesn't interest you, or if you believe it derails your thread, just ignore it. I'm interested in your opinion, but not so much that I'll post again if you don't care to respond.
     
  18. iBlue thread starter macrumors Core

    iBlue

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    #18
    Oh, OK. Well that's certainly a fair question. No, I suppose I don't think that being conservative is intrinsic to having a problem with female sexuality but it certainly seems prevalent in the category of "conservative".
     
  19. rdowns macrumors Penryn

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    #19

    Yeah, it was over the top. Should have said some.
     
  20. Scepticalscribe Contributor

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    #20
    I don't - for one minute - doubt that 'these hypothetical guys' want to have sex with women. That is not the issue. However, we are back to the question of control.

    In fact, a lot of the 'traditional' mindset is about ensuring women's role is so constrained, and so limited, that they cannot have the opportunity to have sex with anyone else. For some 'of these hypothetical guys', it may come down to dislike of the fact that they sexually desire women, - because they have been taught that sexual desire in itself is a cause of sin - and so blame the women for this ('twas the woman who tempted me, Lord, worldview).
     
  21. kavika411 macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    With that I agree, at least as some "conservatives" are portrayed and often portray themselves in public dialogue, especially lately. Quite annoying. As I said in the Limbaugh thread, I hope (against hope) that the backlash against Limbaugh could signify a coming break between fiscal conservatives and social conservatives. I like to think this election is the last hooray for social conservatives.
     
  22. Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #22
    Okay, it is a fair point to make a distinction between fiscal conservatives and social conservatives, although there can be some overlap between the two in jurisdictions such as the US.

    In many of the European jurisdictions, fiscal conservatives and social conservatives can be found along different social axes, and, in general, the fiscal conservatives (often called 'liberals' in Europe) are on the socially liberal side of the spectrum.
     
  23. iBlue thread starter macrumors Core

    iBlue

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    #23
    Totally agree.


    I agree (again). Without derailing the thread too far I am also socially liberal and (mostly) fiscally conservative. Where it starts to unravel for me is that I also support a national health service, one that includes free contraception. Having lived in the US and emigrated to the UK I have experienced both sides of the equation and absolutely prefer the British health care system. (that our conservative "tory" government is trying to undo, actually. another topic) I'm not a fan of government sponsored helplessness (whereby a person can sit on their backside while taxpayers support every penny of their existence) but I feel health care is as fundamental to public service as a fire department, police, public schools, etc, etc. There really is no political party that represents what I believe.

    More on topicly, insurance companies in the US should be covering female contraceptives. Perhaps not even free but covered the same way any other prescription is. To deny her that cannot possibly be a financial decision. There's more to it and what that "more" consists of concerns me a great deal.
     
  24. Tomorrow macrumors 604

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    #24
    I've known a handful of people who do view sex out of wedlock as a sin (to the extent that they actually abstain), but (1) it was both men and women, and (2) neither side blamed the other for their own temptation.

    Your description above sounds like someone who feels sexual desire, but also feels conflict when faced with the chance to act on it. Blaming the opposite sex for your being attracted to them is something that I just don't think is very common.

    But let's get to the real issue here. iBlue spun off this thread from the one where Limbaugh called the woman in front of congress a "slut" and a "prostitute." In that thread, I voiced my opinion that, while I agree with some of his ideology, I disagree with calling her names. I think that's a personal attack, a generalization, that can cause the rest of your argument to be dismissed by people who were so shocked by the name calling that they don't even want to entertain your more logical offerings.

    The real issue as I see it is not about whether birth control should be available; I and (I would venture to guess) most conservatives believe it should be. I and (I would venture to guess) most conservatives don't believe an insurance provider should be forced to provide it to patients for free.

    Birth control (or, more accurately, contraception) is a good thing, in my opinion. My wife used it before we had our child, and I've since been sterilized. I have no moral opposition to it. I have no desire to use it to control another person nor to be controlled by it. But I don't believe it should get any special treatment over any other medication, medical procedure, etc. by either forcing companies to give it away for free or requiring them to cover it if they don't want to.
     
  25. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

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    #25
    I've heard women use the term slut to refer to other girls more than guys. Women also use the term pigs and man whores to refer to men who sleep around. Most guys really dont care if a woman is easy, they will get what they want and move on to someone who provides a challenge.
     

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