Count Florida and Michigan's delegates? No way.

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Thomas Veil, Mar 6, 2008.

  1. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #1
    This is one of the reasons people detest politicians.

    Whether you agree with the rules or not, you know what they are going in -- you deliberately choose to violate them, having been warned what the consequences will be -- you get exactly the result you expected -- and you cry that it's not fair and threaten to hold your breath until you turn blue.

    And then to expect the DNC to come up with some half-assed last-minute substitute and pick up the tab to boot?? Are you kidding me!

    I hate to say it but I have to: that behavior is very Bush-like. It's just the sort of thing I'd expect from Dubya and his bunch -- childish "the-rules-don't-apply-to-me" thinking.

    I feel bad for the people in Florida and Michigan, but it was their state legislatures that screwed them over, not the DNC. And I'm disappointed in Howard Dean for speaking out of both sides of his mouth about "not changing the rules" while mentioning possible "new plans".

    The guy at the end of the article is right: this is a typical Democratic firing squad -- arranged in a circle.
     
  2. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #2
    I don't think the delegates should be seated either, rules are rules. But, if they are going to seat them, it better be after a re-vote of some sort (which, I know Hillary's not going to go along with because I bet Obama would win Michigan and close the gap in Florida if they did it again)
     
  3. elcid macrumors 6502

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    #3
    Ya, this isnt about democracy. This is about a candidate and her supporters trying to get the rules changed after the fact.

    The State legislatures knew what the DNC would do and they put all their cards on the table and lost. Now they cry fowl because "Americans aren't allowed a voice"...that we denied them when we moved the primary up.

    This is a highly politicized move that sends an aweful example to people about how its alright to change the rules after the fact as long as they are in your favor.

    As a Michigander, don't count them.

    And I can't believe Michigander is in the dictionary.
     
  4. redfirebird08 macrumors 6502

    redfirebird08

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    #4
    The worst part of it is that the governor of Michigan is a Hillary supporter and the head of the Florida Democrats introduced her at her "victory" speech in Florida. It's very politicized, and it's a shame they screwed over their own people. If they want to get those delegates, they're gonna have to hold a re-vote where Obama is allowed to campaign, and you know, actually have his name on the effin' Michigan ballot.
     
  5. atszyman macrumors 68020

    atszyman

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    #5
    I do love how they moved their primaries up because they thought they could be more relevant and now had they not done anything they would have a bigger say in the nominee than they could have imagined.

    The only fair method is a revote or a caucus to assign the delegates. When at least one of the candidates isn't campaigning, only one of the candidates name is on one of the ballots, and it was widely publicized that the delegates wouldn't count, there is no way to determine how many people would be disenfranchised because they decided to go to work rather than vote in a primary where they couldn't choose their candidate and knew that the delegates weren't going to count.

    Past contests have gone on longer than this has so far, but for some bizarre reason, everyone (me included sometimes) thinks it should be over now. I don't necessarily understand how this helps McCain, unless the Democrats start to really get into negative campaigning. If they can keep things relatively civil and agree that the real opposition is McCain, having two opponents only keeps his campaign schizophrenic as long as possible since he won't know which one to attack or campaign against and to pick wrong is wasted time and money. The longer it goes on also (especially now) will keep McCain out of the newspapers as the hotly contested democratic nomination keeps getting headlines and McCain faces no opposition. The only headlines McCain stands to make while the Democrats duke it out will most likely be shocking/mostly negative news, which cannot be all that helpful.
     
  6. redfirebird08 macrumors 6502

    redfirebird08

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    #6
    They can't do caucuses. I don't care if it's easier and cheaper to set up, they can't do it. Hillary will cry foul because caucuses favor Obama. The two states normally have primaries, so that is the only way to do a re-vote. If this was Iowa, then yeah a caucus would be OK because that's how Iowa chooses to do their election.
     
  7. atszyman macrumors 68020

    atszyman

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    #7
    So she'd cry foul if they decided to do caucuses, but somehow just counting the delegates based on a vote where people thought their delegates wouldn't count and you didn't have opposition on one of the ballots is completely fair....

    I think Hillary will cry foul on it no matter how they do it since it would more than likely end up not as much in her favor as it is now, despite the "fairness" of the current situation.

    If it doesn't benefit me it's unfair. If you don't agree with me and try to argue you're obstructionist. If you don't interpret it the same way you're activist. It's like kindergarten all over again...
     
  8. it5five macrumors 65816

    it5five

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    #8
    All of this is really really starting to make me dislike Hillary more than I previously did. I've said before I won't vote for her if she wins based on the SD vote. Now I'm not going to vote for her at all, even if she wins the nomination without help of super delegates, all because of the whining she is doing about FL and MI. I really really hope that she loses. Will it take McCain tearing her apart in the general election for her supporters to wake up and realize that she doesn't stand a chance against him?
     
  9. miloblithe macrumors 68020

    miloblithe

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    #9
    They should do a re-vote, and someone should pony up for it.
     
  10. redfirebird08 macrumors 6502

    redfirebird08

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    #10
    Oh I know she's a hypocrite. She's been one in the entire process. She doesn't mind superdelegates overturning the will of the people, but she's concerned about Michigan and Florida's voters getting their voices heard -- but only because it benefits her.
     
  11. NAG macrumors 68030

    NAG

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    #11
    I wouldn't mind if the states redid the election without breaking rules this time. They'd have to pick up the normal bill because it is their stupidity that caused this mess in the first place.
     
  12. Roger1 macrumors 65816

    Roger1

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    #12
    How about Michiganian, then? :p

    Oh, and forget the revote. What's done is done.
     
  13. atszyman macrumors 68020

    atszyman

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    #13
    Exactly. Them asking the DNC to pay for it would be like asking a cop who pulled you over for speeding to pay your ticket for you and give you a chance to re-drive that section of road at a later date.

    I don't mind if the DNC approves their delegates in light of a revote or however they decide to do it this round, but to ask for the money to recast their delegates from the body who established the rules and is punishing them is a bit much.
     
  14. faintember macrumors 65816

    faintember

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    #14
    Thomas Veil, you read my mind (and I do apologize for all the bad bits in it :p). Why, after all of the warnings and the time that has past since the Fl and Mi primaries should the votes even be considered to be counted?

    Now, I am not well versed on the subject, but maybe we should look at the DNC and ask why they think they should penalize a state for moving a primary too far up in date. Maybe someone else can clarify their justification in regards to it.
     
  15. stevento macrumors 6502

    stevento

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    #15
    i dont see why its fair to punish regular voters for what happened for decisions made in the gov't

    people in the gov't decided to move the primary up and regular voters got shafted
    hillary won fair and square in those states so lets have a democracy, not a bush style election where certain votes dont count

    a good solution is to seat the pledged delegates but not not the supers so the people get heard while the politicians get what they deserve not the other way around

    so you're telling me because of a rule that says when the primary is held, the votes shouldn't count? what's Bush like is not counting all the votes. yes, the politicians involved were wrong and childish but this isn't about the gov't is it?
    what's wrong with just counting the votes? the rule said you cant have a primary before a certain day and they broke that rule and the people should be repremanded.

    we need to listen to all the people regardless of how crazy their state legislature is. elections are about PEOPLE not politicians, right?
     
  16. freeny macrumors 68020

    freeny

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    #16
    Dont count the votes and be sure to remember this f*** up next time these politicians are up for reelection. ;)

    I am not a Hillary nor Obama supporter, I will get behind whoever wins the democratic nomination 100%.
    Keep your eye on the prize and stop the hate. The Republicans must go.
     
  17. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #17
    How hard is it to win when Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan?:rolleyes:

    The only reason she is pushing for the delegates to be seated is that she is behind in the delegate count and won both states. Do you think that if the situation was reversed, she was leading in the delegate count and Obama won those two primaries, do you think she would want those delegates to be seated at the convention? Hell no she wouldn't.

    The DNC and all of the candidates agreed that if Florida and Michigan would lose their delegates if they moved up their primaries. She needs to stand by that decision.
     
  18. stevento macrumors 6502

    stevento

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    #18
    she did win fair and square
    obama decided to remove his name from the ballot and so did edwards
    michigan rep john conyers -- (who's nephew i graduated high school with btw neither here nor there) -- held a campaign for obama/edwards supporters to vote uncommitted and they did

    hillary got 54%, uncomitted got 44% and dodd and biden got a couple
    so its not like she was the only choice
    in florida all their names were on the ballot so she def won that fairly
     
  19. freeny macrumors 68020

    freeny

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    #19
    Dont think for a second that Obama wouldn't be doing the same thing if he were in her shoes.

    Tha man is a politician, not a saint :rolleyes:

    The only argument for Obama is Michigan, Fla. had everyone on the ballot.
     
  20. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #20
    I've never said he wouldn't. However, that is not the case. Its Hillary that is trying to change the rules, not Obama.
     
  21. freeny macrumors 68020

    freeny

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    So are you implying that Obama doesnt want the voters in Fla. to have their votes count?

    Im all for a redo in Michigan...
     
  22. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #22
    I am not implying anything about Obama. It is certainly possible that he feels that way, but since I'm not a mindreader, and he hasn't said anything like that, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt. It is Hillary who is trying to change the rules concerning these 2 primaries after she already agreed to the sanctions.
     
  23. freeny macrumors 68020

    freeny

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    #23
    OK, but do you believe the voters in these states should be punished for what their pea brained government did?

    Like I said before, Im not leaning to either side, all I care is the Dems win in November whoever the candidate. but you have to feel a bit for those voters...
    I understand what the rules were that were laid out but these voters deserve to have their say... The politicians need to be punished.

    It is Hillary who is fighting for the citizens voices to be heard and not Obama, His silence is saying a lot. How does that reflect on his character?
    as far as hes concerned these voters should be swept under the rug. I know id be pissed.
    I dont hear him making any suggestions on getting thier voices heard...

    This is a mess no matter how you slice it.

    any suggestions?
     
  24. Mike Teezie macrumors 68020

    Mike Teezie

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    #24
    I don't get why this is even a discussion.

    They broke the rules that were plainly stated, so, the delegates won't be seated. Everyone agreed to those rules.

    The only thing I can see discussing is how to fund a revote in those states.
     
  25. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #25
    I willing to bet a lot of you would be changing your tune if it was the other way around. obama is losing and those states would be a win for him.

    I personally think states should rotated who goes first in the primaries so they all get a better say in who will be running for president.

    When flordia and Michegin orginally moved up the dates no one say it really having an effect. Now that it matters I think they should give those people a real voice.
     

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