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Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,516
31,841
John Gruber brings up the iPad/Mac discussion around the 58 minute mark. Both Craig and Joz said the Mac and iPad are different products. They both said they love their Mac and their iPad. Then Craig compared putting the M4 in the iPad to someone having a truck and a sports car with a V8 engine but wondering why the sports car can’t tow their boat. Then he finished by saying he wants the iPad to be the best iPad it can be.

It seems pretty clear from those comments that iPadOS isn’t getting closer to macOS anytime soon. The question I would ask them is what about customers who don’t want (or can’t afford) to own an iPad and a Mac? A top of the line iPad Pro is as expensive as a Mac laptop. Is Craig really saying that it is impossible for Apple to create a version of iPadOS that could be the best tablet experience but also serve more pro workflows that exist on the Mac? He threw in a dig at Windows 8 but Microsoft taking a desktop OS and shoehorning it into a tablet is nothing like Apple making a touch first OS more capable of doing desktop like workflows. I think I’d have more respect for their comments if they just said yeah we’d like you to own both devices.
 

fw85

macrumors regular
Jun 22, 2023
106
217
In that analogy, it's perfectly fine to daily drive just the sports car, as long as you understand its limitations.
And you don't necessarily try towing a boat or picking up your new refridgerator with it.

But they should stop neglecting this sports car and refine the experience as much as it deserves to be.
 

Nikhil72

macrumors 68000
Oct 21, 2005
1,522
1,305
If someone can’t afford both, then a standard cost-value system that an adult is expected to have should be used to figure out where the most utility will be. For others who can afford both, they will ultimately serve different purposes.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,516
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If someone can’t afford both, then a standard cost-value system that an adult is expected to have should be used to figure out where the most utility will be. For others who can afford both, they will ultimately serve different purposes.
I think it’s fair to ask why Apple thinks iPad OS is powerful enough as is. Unless they’re intentionally holding it back so certain power users buy both an iPad and a Mac. But I don’t think that’s defensible.
 

Ludatyk

macrumors 603
May 27, 2012
5,762
4,849
Texas
The question I would ask them is what about customers who don’t want (or can’t afford) to own an iPad and a Mac?
Doesn't necessarily have to be the most expensive models. Buy a M1 MBA and the base iPad? Consumers can pick up a refurbished M1 MBA for a good price...

A top of the line iPad Pro is as expensive as a Mac laptop. Is Craig really saying that it is impossible for Apple to create a version of iPadOS that could be the best tablet experience but also serve more pro workflows that exist on the Mac?
Why do you target the top of line iPad Pro? It's for users who want the best-in-class iPad, if consumers cannot afford it there are less expensive options available.
 

Aka757

macrumors regular
Sep 22, 2016
206
271
Houston
I think it’s fair to ask why Apple thinks iPad OS is powerful enough as is. Unless they’re intentionally holding it back so certain power users buy both an iPad and a Mac. But I don’t think that’s defensible.
The answer is in your original post, isn’t it? The operating system fits the product. An iPad isn’t a MacBook, so it gets iPadOS vs macOS, which is more than powerful enough for iPadOS things. My guess is that power users are not the folks buying both an iPad and a MacBook. The power users know exactly what they need, and what they need to get done likely works better on either the iPad or the MacBook, so no real need for both. On the other hand, an average user may have some need for a basic laptop (MacBook Air), and a basic tablet (base model iPad or iPad Air), again with different uses.
 

rkuo

macrumors 65816
Sep 25, 2010
1,300
937
I think the framing needs to change at this point.

I’m perfectly fine saying I want a high end portable Mac that can run iPad apps completely natively. This isn’t functionally different from an iPad running macOS but it doesn’t try to put a more expensive platform on a less expensive one.

I think that would put an end to the superficial takes from the peanut gallery accusing us of trying to force MacOS on them. And it would create space on the high end for Apple to charge what they need to without cannibalizing the two product lines.
 
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darngooddesign

macrumors P6
Jul 4, 2007
18,243
9,929
Atlanta, GA
I think the framing needs to change at this point.

I’m perfectly fine saying I want a high end portable Mac that can run iPad apps completely natively. This isn’t functionally different from an iPad running macOS but it doesn’t try to put a more expensive platform on a less expensive one.

I think that would put an end to the superficial takes from the peanut gallery accusing us of trying to force MacOS on them. And it would create space on the high end for Apple to charge what they need to without cannibalizing the two product lines.
Apple made the process of running iPad apps on MacOS about as simple as they could, but developers by and large are not interested in that.
 

Zaydax333

macrumors member
May 25, 2021
93
233
ehhhh this is just like corporate BS. I feel like they knew they were gonna be asked this question and tried to come up with an answer to appease the normies but it doesn't really make any sense.

First of all I don't think they should be shoehorning MacOS onto the iPad. It's not a touch designed OS. I agree with that.

HOWEVER:

Towing something is not the equivalent to like wanting an eject button for drives or like letting apps complete tasks in the background. (Final cut export in background).

Like, by not having an eject button you are causing your customers drives to possibly become corrupted. (This has happened to me in the past, it's why i returned an iPad Pro.) This isn't a huge ask, like just, basic functionality.

You know what has really happened here?

They wanted to give the iPad more power, BUT they didn't want to design new separate A#X chips, so they slapped M chips into the iPads and people inferred unrealistic expectations of what it should be capable of.

We need to re-adjust expectations to be lower and not expect much out of these. They're just gonna be big iPhones and we should use them as such.
 
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bradman83

macrumors 65816
Oct 29, 2020
1,077
2,685
Buffalo, NY
They wanted to give the iPad more power, BUT they didn't want to design new separate A#X chips, so they slapped M chips into the iPads and people inferred unrealistic expectations of what it should be capable of.
Base M-series chips are essentially A#X chips. Why would Apple, for example, design a separate A14X when the M1 already is what an A14X would have been?
 

Zaydax333

macrumors member
May 25, 2021
93
233
Base M-series chips are essentially A#X chips. Why would Apple, for example, design a separate A14X when the M1 already is what an A14X would have been?
Even at the base M chip level, they are NOT simply A#X chips. Maybe in like underlying I/O capabilities and other components.

They have specific hardware in the cores to help with x86 app emulation. From wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software)#Rosetta_2: "One of the key reasons why Rosetta 2 provides such a high level of translation efficiency is the support of x86-64 memory ordering in the Apple M1 SOC.[14] The SOC also has dedicated instructions for computing x86 flags.[15]"

Also 16GB RAM support? From stingy apple? Cmon now.
 
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eltoslightfoot

macrumors 68020
Feb 25, 2011
2,406
2,906
Doesn't necessarily have to be the most expensive models. Buy a M1 MBA and the base iPad? Consumers can pick up a refurbished M1 MBA for a good price...


Why do you target the top of line iPad Pro? It's for users who want the best-in-class iPad, if consumers cannot afford it there are less expensive options available.
Yeah I mean I want to be as indignant as the next guy, but you can get a brand new iPad for like $300 and a brand new M1 MacBook Air at Wally World for like $649. Used prices are even cheaper. I may not like that they won’t give us a single device, but there are ways to get what you need even if somewhat limited on means.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,516
31,841
Doesn't necessarily have to be the most expensive models. Buy a M1 MBA and the base iPad? Consumers can pick up a refurbished M1 MBA for a good price...


Why do you target the top of line iPad Pro? It's for users who want the best-in-class iPad, if consumers cannot afford it there are less expensive options available.
Because I would love my iPad to be my only computer (besides my phone). I guess if I was a Mac user then yeah the iPad Pro is definitely overkill.
 
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Ludatyk

macrumors 603
May 27, 2012
5,762
4,849
Texas
Yeah I mean I want to be as indignant as the next guy, but you can get a brand new iPad for like $300 and a brand new M1 MacBook Air at Wally World for like $649. Used prices are even cheaper. I may not like that they won’t give us a single device, but there are ways to get what you need even if somewhat limited on means.
Yeah, critics are so centered around the iPad Pro and the cost of it when they can choose something else.

They are not obligated to buy the expensive option and it’s no different from a Mac user deciding between MBA or a Mac Studio, maybe a Mac Pro costing upwards of $12,000. It all depends on whether the tools are suitable for them, ultimately… that’s all that matters.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,516
31,841
The answer is in your original post, isn’t it? The operating system fits the product. An iPad isn’t a MacBook, so it gets iPadOS vs macOS, which is more than powerful enough for iPadOS things. My guess is that power users are not the folks buying both an iPad and a MacBook. The power users know exactly what they need, and what they need to get done likely works better on either the iPad or the MacBook, so no real need for both. On the other hand, an average user may have some need for a basic laptop (MacBook Air), and a basic tablet (base model iPad or iPad Air), again with different uses.
But it was Apple’s choice to fork iOS into iPadOS and give it the same processors that power Macs. What’s the point of doing that if iPad is still mostly just a big iPhone?
 
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Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,516
31,841
Their analogy is nonsensical to the actual problem: iPadOS becomes unintuitive as soon as you want to do more than the actual basics. We're not asking for more towing power, we're asking for it to just make sense.
Yes and think John Gruber’s framing merging Mac and iPad was disingenuous. It’s like he intentionally framed it that way to make it easier for Craig and Joz to dismiss it.

Some of the biggest iPad Pro users listed specific things they think the platform needs. And to the extent they said ‘let us boot into macOS’ it’s a last resort as Apple doesn’t seem to want to do anything else. I wouldn’t expect Gruber to name drop someone like Federico Viticci but he could have summarized a few of their complaints/suggestions and framed that to Craig. The answers Craig and Joz gave just screamed we think people should own two devices.
 

GuruZac

macrumors 68040
Sep 9, 2015
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I think there is definitely overlap between Mac and iPad, but I find I use them differently in more ways than I do that overlap. I prefer to go to my iPad for most things, but certain tasks are just better on my Mac, especially being an M1 MBA (light, fast, great keyboard and battery life) and short of Apple offering a dual boot mode where the iPad can run macOS there is no option to just have the iPad, for me.

I have accepted that Apple has a vision for the iPad and iPadOS, and though it’s not macOS level power in its software, it us nonetheless a powerful device and software. I will own both, and I specifically prefer iPad Pro for the much better display, quad speakers, FaceID.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,516
31,841
ehhhh this is just like corporate BS. I feel like they knew they were gonna be asked this question and tried to come up with an answer to appease the normies but it doesn't really make any sense.

First of all I don't think they should be shoehorning MacOS onto the iPad. It's not a touch designed OS. I agree with that.

HOWEVER:

Towing something is not the equivalent to like wanting an eject button for drives or like letting apps complete tasks in the background. (Final cut export in background).

Like, by not having an eject button you are causing your customers drives to possibly become corrupted. (This has happened to me in the past, it's why i returned an iPad Pro.) This isn't a huge ask, like just, basic functionality.

You know what has really happened here?

They wanted to give the iPad more power, BUT they didn't want to design new separate A#X chips, so they slapped M chips into the iPads and people inferred unrealistic expectations of what it should be capable of.

We need to re-adjust expectations to be lower and not expect much out of these. They're just gonna be big iPhones and we should use them as such.
I keep around an old Windows laptop for 2 things: uploading music to iTunes (now Apple Music) and using a Firefox extension to download video from YouTube. If Apple made the iOS/iPadOS Music app and browser extensions have feature parity with their desktop versions I could ditch this old laptop. But it’s like they’re intentionally holding back iPad OS just enough that it can’t quite replace a desktop/laptop. I refuse to believe there is no way to add more pro capabilities without making it complex for grandma. I mean they added stage manager and most iPad users probably don’t know anything about it and never use it. I also refuse to believe it’s a resource issue. They spent a lot of time demoing a calculator app and continue to make pencil improvements so it’s not like there are zero resources being dedicated to iPad.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,516
31,841
Yeah, critics are so centered around the iPad Pro and the cost of it when they can choose something else.

They are not obligated to buy the expensive option and it’s no different from a Mac user deciding between MBA or a Mac Studio, maybe a Mac Pro costing upwards of $12,000. It all depends on whether the tools are suitable for them, ultimately… that’s all that matters.
If I used a Mac (or Windows) laptop on a regular basis I certainly wouldn’t own an iPad Pro. But I don’t. I would like my iPad Pro to replace my old Windows laptop. I love the fact I can detach it from the keyboard and read a book on it. I love the fact that it’s a touch first input. I love the pencil support. I don’t need it to run macOS but I would like it to be more than just a blown up iPhone.
 

Rogifan

macrumors Penryn
Original poster
Nov 14, 2011
24,516
31,841
I think there is definitely overlap between Mac and iPad, but I find I use them differently in more ways than I do that overlap. I prefer to go to my iPad for most things, but certain tasks are just better on my Mac, especially being an M1 MBA (light, fast, great keyboard and battery life) and short of Apple offering a dual boot mode where the iPad can run macOS there is no option to just have the iPad, for me.

I have accepted that Apple has a vision for the iPad and iPadOS, and though it’s not macOS level power in its software, it us nonetheless a powerful device and software. I will own both, and I specifically prefer iPad Pro for the much better display, quad speakers, FaceID.
What do you think the vision for iPadOS is?
 

Ludatyk

macrumors 603
May 27, 2012
5,762
4,849
Texas
If I used a Mac (or Windows) laptop on a regular basis I certainly wouldn’t own an iPad Pro. But I don’t. I would like my iPad Pro to replace my old Windows laptop. I love the fact I can detach it from the keyboard and read a book on it. I love the fact that it’s a touch first input. I love the pencil support. I don’t need it to run macOS but I would like it to be more than just a blown up iPhone.
Fair enough, so… what in the iPad Pro is lacking for you again?
 
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