Critics of Auto Bailout Decry Fallout of Government Intervention

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by fivepoint, Dec 9, 2008.

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What do you think about the proposed auto-bailout bill?

  1. Government Should Not Nationalize Industry

    42.9%
  2. A Necessary Evil

    38.1%
  3. Government Owned > Privately Owned

    9.5%
  4. Other

    9.5%
  1. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #1
    Wondering what everyone's thoughts are on Rep. Dan Burton's bailout position. Do you agree that the government has no business nationalizing industry, consider it to be a necessary evil, or generally think that "government owned" is better than "privately owned"? This is a very complex and important issue to discuss.


     
  2. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #2
    I wasn't aware your government was going to own the Auto companies with the bailout?


    edit: Fox news conservative buzz word bingo for those playing :D!
     
  3. dukebound85 macrumors P6

    dukebound85

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    #3
    from what i gather, its going to be private owned with governmental oversight as it should be when taxpayer money is being used to rescue it
     
  4. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #4
    So really the Fox News article is just using buzz words like nationalise and quasi-socialist to try and demonise the initiative which has the intention of helping the economy. Wouldn't a more mature/intelligent stance be to discuss the pros and cons of the bailout, the logical extent of it, why it would/won't work, the short and long term ramifications, and the caveats/conditions that should be attached?
     
  5. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #5
    Why do you use the words "mature" and "intelligent" in the same paragraph as "Fox News"? :confused:
     
  6. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #6
    Do not troll in my thread by turning this into a "FOX SUX" debate. Discuss the topics posed, or don't participate at all.
     
  7. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #7
    I do not recall addressing you.
     
  8. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #8
    True, we should be asking where is the oversite on the banks,wall street, Fannie and Freddie. Congress gave these guys billions without even questions. Could it be the millions and millions paid to congress for campaigns?

    We wont have any problem as long as these company's pay it back which Chrysler has done in the past though I dislike how they are owned and structured at the moment. LLC has plenty of money for Chrysler if it so wanted to help them and it does not want to. I think Chrysler should be yanked away from LLC in some fashion and even nationalized or merged with GM if you will.
     
  9. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #9
    I think the loans are a necessary evil but I do have a problem with Chrysler getting anything. First, they have been doing nothing other than trying to get themselves bought out or merged. They have little of value other than Jeep.

    Second, Cerberus (they own Chrysler) is a huge private equity firm with billions in assets. If they are not willing to try and save Chrysler, why should the taxpayers?
     
  10. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #10
    +1

    I also find it a bit ironic that we've already bailed them out once. "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
     
  11. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #11
    I think Chrysler is worth saving but lets face it they have been raided by the Germans and now raided by the investment class who only care about the short term profit. I dont know how you do it, but they should be taken away from cereberus who really could give a hoot about it as is clear by the lack of any investment in the future. Have the govt buy them out and .......need some help here. Also the ceo of chrysler is the same guy who got millions for being fired from Home Depot. He needs to go work on the assembly line or sweep floors or just eliminated from the company.
     
  12. j/k/Andy macrumors regular

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    #12
    It is a loan with the money to be paid back, not a bail out, and Chrysler paid the 1979 loan (1.5B) off by 1983, with interest
     
  13. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #13
    It's a bail-out. The loan is more valuable than the company itself. (GM's market cap is currently less than 3 billion dollars) What happens if they can't pay it back, which is more than likely considering the recent trends in auto sales? If the business model couldn't succeed in the last 5 years, it can't succeed, period.

    IT's not simply a loan. That much is clear.
     
  14. dukebound85 macrumors P6

    dukebound85

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    #14
    so you say the loan Chrysler paid back with interest was a bailout

    by that logic, every loan given to every individual/buisness/etc is a bailout huh
     
  15. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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  16. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #16
    Duke- you impress me more every day.

    That's about the extent of what will happen, yes. That said, I'm against bailouts for the most part. But since this may be necessary, I want people fired and better ones put in place. And NO golden parachutes!

    Exactly- and let's see just how much we get back from the banks. I'm betting nothing. I'd expect to get most of it back from the auto industry.
     
  17. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #17
    What's really pissing me off in this whole fustercluck are Senators like Shelby and McConnell fighting it so fiercly while they have been perfectly happy with foreign (non-union) manufacturers setting up shop in their states and getting huge tax breaks.
     
  18. dukebound85 macrumors P6

    dukebound85

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    #18
    thanks lee

    tell me what is wrong with foreign companies setting up plants in states. it creates jobs and helps the economy. or are you simply against anything unamercian in the US?

    of course tax breaks are needed to entice the companies to set up there in the first place

    id rather have foreign companies with successful buisness models create jobs here than have companies on the verge of failing that would employ those same people and when they go away, leave 1000's without work

    i dont know why people are against companies like toyota when a lot of their cars are built in the US
     
  19. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #19
    I'm not against foreign manufacturers at all. I think they are being hypocritical in that the govt. did a lot to help them locate there but they are unwilling to help out our auto industry. GM failing could bring down our economy.
     
  20. Thanatoast macrumors 6502a

    Thanatoast

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    #20
    I'm surprised that the WTO isn't getting involved in this mess. Handing out tens of billions to domestic industries (while shutting out their foreign competitors) is something we've treatened massive sanctions for when other countries have done it.

    I'm also pissed at the Congress and the free-marketers. Each of these companies has been trundling down the same short-sighted path for years if not decades while their counterparts have been looking at trends and where the market is going to be. The truly free market would see the weak companies fail, but I suppose lobbyists are also part of the free market, so there's that.

    I'm okay with the economy tanking. We need a massive correction and having the Congress and the Fed throw money at things will only make the situation worse in the long run. Ditch the Fed and go back to having the government control the money supply. Take a look at an inflation graph covering the existence of the US. Right after the Fed is created inflation starts climbing and never stops. And who's earning all that cash? The same bankers who just got capital guarantees in the trillions of dollars from the US taxpayer.
     
  21. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #21
    I know this will be a tangent to the discussion here, but I can't help but think about this:

    Why are the models sold overseas (europe/australasia etc) not put in the market over here?

    There seem to be so many superior cars and technology available outside of the US. There are multiple diesel offerings, practical small cars, and great styling.

    The American car companies own offerings overseas seem to be quite superior to their domestic offerings, if only to compete in these foreign markets.

    I guess I find all of this pretty confusing when these companies do make decent products (and competitive ones), but don't sell them at home.
     
  22. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #22
    How are we shutting out foreign competitors? We welcomed the Japanese and Germans here with open arms and millions in tax breaks. We allow the Koreans to sell tens of thousands of cars here while they let us sell like 5,000 a year there.
     
  23. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

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    #23
    There wasn't supposed to be any governmental ownership of the banks either, but look at Citi. The government now has a vested interest and partial ownership. It's unconstitutional, unfair, and unnecessarily extends the recession by propping up failing companies and not allowing the market to correct itself. Ron Paul would tell you the same thing, duke.

    The same is true for the proposed auto-bailout. The government would gain partial management control over private businesses, some of the largest out there by the way, and would be handing over billions upon billions of taxpayer dollars which they may not get back. GM lost over 6 BILLION dollars last fiscal quarter. What do we propose we do to fix the problem? Give them 11 billion. Less than enough to stop the bleeding for 2 quarters! This is a massive problem, and one that won't be fixed by a short-term increase in cash, small UAW concessions, or the death of a few brands. This is a fundamental ground-up failure of the system and is only curable by bankruptcy. This is not only a bailout, it's a worthless bailout band-aid doomed to fail.





    +1
     
  24. dukebound85 macrumors P6

    dukebound85

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    #24
    i know that's what Ron Paul would say. however, we have to deal what is actually happening now. its no longer speculation but a certainty. with that said if taxpayer's money is going to be used, then there needs to be governmental oversight of these businesses

    if it were up to me, id let the whole thing work itself out without any government interfering. however, thats not the reality
     
  25. Counterfit macrumors G3

    Counterfit

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    #25
    In part because Ford ditched the guy who wanted to do just that (Euro Focus, Ka (which would go over great in Boston), Mondeo, etc.), and chose a CEO who wanted to redesign the US Focus, wasting millions.
     

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