CSU bans concealed carry

dukebound85

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jul 17, 2005
18,059
1,185
5045 feet above sea level
This is not the newest news but is still a big topic down here

CSU had been one of the few campuses allowing concealed carry. I fully support this for a multitude of reasons

Here is the article describing it
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123858348
http://collegian.com/index.php/article/2010/02/students_allowed_pepper_spray_tasers_under_weapons_policy


Now what is great is that the county sheriff will not enforce this ridiculous ban:)

Thoughts?

The region's county sheriff, Jim Alderden, says if the CSU policy is put into place, he will not jail anyone found guilty of violating it.

"What CSU is trying to pass is a policy," Alderden says. "And their position is that the university policy trumps state law and the U.S. Constitution."

Alderden says school policy should not trump state law. But under Colorado law, campuses do have the authority to implement weapons control policies.
Colorado's state laws complicate the issue: Right now, state statute does not specifically address handguns on college campuses. Since the 2007 Virginia Tech shootings, vague legal language has been a source of debate in other states, too. According to the National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL), lawmakers have introduced 56 bills in the past three years aimed at specifically addressing concealed-carry laws on college campuses — either allowing or restricting carry.
 

gibbz

macrumors 68030
May 31, 2007
2,691
91
I am in favor of the ban. Mostly it boils to my own personal opinion.

It looks like the law is in their favor.
But under Colorado law, campuses do have the authority to implement weapons control policies
 

dukebound85

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jul 17, 2005
18,059
1,185
5045 feet above sea level
Hey, great! Create a free-fire zone for nutzoids! Encourage another VaTech!
You know what's funny? Is that that is true

Restricting carry rights on campus WILL NOT prevent a nutjob from bringing a gun to shoot up people

People that have concealed weapons are amongst the most responsible I know. All this is is a reaction to Va Tech but it in no way comes close to solving the problem

All this does is penalize law abiding citizens, not the ones that have the intent to harm
 

gibbz

macrumors 68030
May 31, 2007
2,691
91
Hey, great! Create a free-fire zone for nutzoids! Encourage another VaTech!
I don't think that allowing everyone access to firearms will prevent 'nutzoids' from acting accordingly. There were so many more problems leading up to the VaTech incident other than lack of conceal carry. For instance the fact a nutzoid was allowed to purchase a weapon given his history. There were so many warning signs ignored prior to that event.
 

TuffLuffJimmy

macrumors G3
Apr 6, 2007
8,989
25
Portland, OR
I don't like guns, but I don't have a lot of experience with guns. So I'm no authority on the subject, but I guess I have my prejudices (not necessarily bad). I think guns should be banned from all college campuses and schools and... really anywhere else. Civilians should, at most, only be able to purchase and possess hunting rifles.


So I dig this ban, but I'm not really going to put much effort into a debate.
 

dukebound85

macrumors P6
Original poster
Jul 17, 2005
18,059
1,185
5045 feet above sea level
A great article
http://www.collegian.com/index.php/article/2010/02/csu_gun_ban_based_on_ignorance_faulty_logic

Larimer County Sheriff Jim Alderden attended the press conference and stated that in his 11 years of issuing concealed licenses, their use at CSU has never been a problem. And the crime statistics reported by the CSU Police Department show a massive dip in the number of incidents since 2003, when Colorado issued statewide concealed carry reform (a graph of the data can be found at www.concealedcampus.org
The argument that the BOG and many ill-informed students on campus cling to is that there is no reason to carry a gun on campus.
They have apparently forgotten the massacre at Virginia Tech and the deadly incidents at numerous campuses in the past, including the University of Arizona, Virginia’s Appalachian School of Law, San Diego State and the University of Iowa.

They may not see the benefit of carrying on campus, but this does not give them any compelling reason to restrict the rights of others to do so.

To suggest a law-abiding citizen with the proper licenses and a handgun could not prematurely end a killing spree on campus is mind-numbingly stupid.
 

IntheNet

macrumors regular
Oct 6, 2009
190
0
Thoughts?
The problem with a university trying to "trump" state law is very real; while Colorado campuses do have the authority to implement whatever weapons control policies they wish, these policies are irrelevant to the state law which takes precedence! Note that despite each university campus in each state having a staggering number of campus security guards, not a single one of the many campus shootings has been stopped or prevented by campus security! Nor have these college shootings been stopped or prevented by ridiculous "weapons control policies" drafted by university staff. Therefore, one of the only means of self defense on college campuses is in fact concealed carry lawful under state law; in this instance Colorado law and legal Colorado concealed weapon permit. So what CSU is advocating is making CSU students less safe!
 

hulugu

macrumors 68000
Aug 13, 2003
1,819
10,251
quae tangit perit Trump
Hey, great! Create a free-fire zone for nutzoids! Encourage another VaTech!
If we are to describe the school shooters as irrational (re: crazy, nuts), then why is everyone so convinced that this person would also be making rational decisions about where to attack?

I'd argue that the school shooters weren't just hoping to kill lots of people, but were also hoping to go down in a "blaze of glory."

Also, of note, many of the school shooters went after their friends and acquaintances, people they would know to either engage immediately or to avoid entirely.
 

gibbz

macrumors 68030
May 31, 2007
2,691
91
The problem with a university trying to "trump" state law is very real; while Colorado campuses do have the authority to implement whatever weapons control policies they wish, these policies are irrelevant to the state law which takes precedence!
That authority is granted by the law itself, so such policies aren't irrelevant. Colorado basically augments the carry conceal law with specific provisions, one of which allows certain establishments to decide whether to allow weapons. No one is forced to attend or to enter the campus, no rights are violated.
 

SMM

macrumors 65816
Sep 22, 2006
1,340
0
Tiger Mountain - WA State
Reality Check

Most people packing a gun would be loathe to really use it. If anything, they would close their eyes while pulling the trigger and their bullets would miss by yards, in every possible direction they might aim. The gun becomes more of a liability to the user, rather than the perp (that is assuming they even manage to get a round off).

As to whether there is truly a need for college students to be carrying a concealed weapon, I suggest that only in very rare cases is that required, or even advisable. The BoR gives us the right to own, bear arms and form a militia. As citizens, I think we have a right for protection against the so-called 'patriots', who hide behind a literal translation of the Constitution, but are not screwed on real tight. You know; the ones shooting up abortion clinics, doctors, jews, atheists, liberals, immigrants, or anyone else they perceive as 'the enemy'.

Hell, a large percentage of whackos have CWPs, just because they have not come to someone's attention yet.
 

mac88

macrumors 6502
Aug 7, 2008
477
2
Boston, MA.
So what is going to happen when there is an "off duty" police officer in the class or an officer that is allowed to take a class, on duty while in uniform? Some nut comes in and starts shooting, who is everyone going to look at? The police officer who can not carry his/her firearm into the class. There will be countless blowhards who would want the officer to be sued, fired, blah blah because he/she had a duty to act and they did not. I know if there was a police officer in my class he would be the first one I look at for help in this situation. Now many students/teachers can't because some administrator wants to play god? On a whole that is what the administration is doing. I'm sorry, but that is why there are concealed carry laws in this country. Colleges and Universities of today are quite sad.
 

SMM

macrumors 65816
Sep 22, 2006
1,340
0
Tiger Mountain - WA State
So what is going to happen when there is an "off duty" police officer in the class or an officer that is allowed to take a class, on duty while in uniform? Some nut comes in and starts shooting, who is everyone going to look at? The police officer who can not carry his/her firearm into the class. There will be countless blowhards who would want the officer to be sued, fired, blah blah because he/she had a duty to act and they did not. I know if there was a police officer in my class he would be the first one I look at for help in this situation. Now many students/teachers can't because some administrator wants to play god? On a whole that is what the administration is doing. I'm sorry, but that is why there are concealed carry laws in this country. Colleges and Universities of today are quite sad.
Police officers are a completely different situation. In WA State where I live, police officers are required to carry their weapons, even while off-duty. The majority pack them concealed, but a few wear them openly. The rules of engagement apply the same as if they were on-duty (and rightly so, if they become involved in a shooting situation).
 

Desertrat

macrumors newbie
Jul 4, 2003
2
706
Terlingua, Texas
hulugu, the issue is that of restriction against those who have CHLs. Those people are in no way whatsoever the nutzoids about whom one worries.

SMM, you may close YOUR eyes when shooting, but I've yet to meet anybody with a CHL who is that incompetent.

Aside from any other pistol shooting over the previous thirty or forty years, I acquired and then have twice renewed my CHL I've provided shooting ranges for instructors' classes, observing a fair number of them. I've yet to see anybody fail the 50-round shooting test, including distances of 25 yards.

I've been in this sort of argument since 1967. I've yet to figure out how allegedly rational people can assume that because they are incompetent with a handgun that nobody else can be competent. Further gripe: They're sexist as all get-out when it comes to the idea of women defending themselves with a handgun, given the attitude that a woman would be helpless in spite of being armed.

Rant mode off.

And, FWIW, absent the high-testosterone SWAT guys and a relatively few others, the average cop can barely qualify with his handgun. The situation is improving, but slowly.
 

IntheNet

macrumors regular
Oct 6, 2009
190
0
I donn't get you, InTheNet, are you for or against big governments? Shouldn't you be into local governments governing their own property?
Against big government but that is a distraction to this issue!

The issue of firearms ownership is legally extended to all citizens through the Second Amendment of the Constitution on the federal level. On the state and local level, concealed weapons permits (concealed carry) is a right extended by the state via authorized permit issued to the individual. Both of these rights "trump" what CSU is attempting to do on their campus, hence County Sheriff, Jim Alderden's comments. With more and more instances of danger at the nation's universities, students need to think of their own welfare - local law enforcement and college security has been completely ineffectual - therefore student concealed carry is a means of survival that universities cannot deny.
 

yellow

Moderator emeritus
Oct 21, 2003
15,925
1
Portland, OR
Interesting, in North Carolina, one may not carry a concealed weapon onto any educational property, as it is a violation of the Conceal/Carry Permit. Since my CCP has reciprocity in Colorado, I could legally carry (concealed) there, but I'd still never take it onto EDU property. One should note, however, that CSU is a state institution, so they must have some sort of state government sanction for this ban.
 

Cromulent

macrumors 603
Oct 2, 2006
6,032
35
The Land of Hope and Glory
Britain = no guns allowed by any citizen (legally). No major university or school shootings for over a decade.

United States = concealed firearms allowed to be carried by citizens in most states (I think). At least 3 major shootings in the last decade. Many more deaths from shootings in general too.