Dave Lee’s MacBook Pro review is telling

[oldmacs]

Interesting perspective. Thanks for the info. --- I'm sure Apple could do it and make money off it. If anyone can, they can.

I hope to be still using my 2017 MBP 7 years from now like you are.

Thanks!

I'm probably wrong but thats just my take on things. Apple has moved its focus away from people like myself.

I'm hoping to hit 10 years with my MacBook. The biggest limiting factor is the HD4000 Graphics!!

 

[Mendota]

This depends on what you mean by 'several streams' and what codec these streams are using. If I give you a 10ghz 10 core CPU you could still make an app run slow or throttle a system. Inefficient workflows even bring desktop systems down. That's why pros always rely on proxies and always will.
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Your answer is completely irrelevant and a waste of your energy.

Virtually every use case people are posting about on this forum on those youtube channels are creative environments. Mac networks are the norm in creative industry. A network of such Mac users who rely on things like Labels, wide support for thumbnail previews for common file formats and QuickLook will never accept Windows. It would cripple their entire multi user workflow. If you suggested moving to Windows in such an environment you would commit career suicide on the spot.

You are seriously mistaken. There are many "creatives" that use Windows. There is more to "creatives" than Final Cut Pro users. Ableton Live, Resolve, Premier, Solidworks, etc.... These are all PC based and are in wide use worldwide. You do realize that Mac represents only about 7 to 9 percent of the personal computing world. And let us not forget Adobe, Corel Painter, Affinity, are cross platform and more of these applications are sold on Windows than Mac. I am a creative person and my primary machine for Painting are Windows based. No Macs even have digitizers in any of their notebooks. Apples answer is to use an iPad which is seriously limited for professional use in painting. I like Procreate, but it is no Painter.
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I agree that the current crop of Apple notebooks are problematic. The lineup is cluttered and confusing for non-techy folks, the keyboard fiasco is a massive black eye, an unforced error that they just keep compounding. The non-Touch Bar notebooks are 2 CPU generations behind for no obvious reason. Have they been abandoned? Who knows! And so on.

They offer expensive CPU "upgrades" in their notebooks that actually run slower in many key scenarios than the CPU you're "upgrading" from because, well, the laws of physics are annoyingly immutable.

Plus, Apple is price gouging like crazy on RAM and SSDs, both of which are dirt cheap now. You can get 16GB of RAM for a hundred bucks. You can get a 1TB PCIE SSD with passable performance (Intel 660p) for $100, or one with excellent performance for twice that. But despite the prices of both RAM and SSD's bottoming out over the last several months, Apple continues to charge the same premium as when component prices were 2X or more higher than they are now. But, hey, if you want more RAM or storage in your MacBook, you have to buy it from Apple or else, so they can charge what they please ...

They're still shipping desktop computers with 8GB of RAM and 5400RPM spinning disks that can't be upgraded. If I were them, I'd be plain embarrassed to ask people to buy that crap in 2019.

They've been designing the new "modular" Mac Pro for years now, which tells me conclusively that what they end up releasing won't be what I and many other want, because it wouldn't take years to update the cheese grater case to modern specs.

But, at the end of the day the PC OEMs really aren't any better in many ways, and in a lot of ways they are worse. For whatever reason, Apple gets publicly brutalized for each and every little problem while other companies release one piece of broken junk after another, leave their customers hanging, and move on to repeat the cycle without much noise and fuss. If you buy a flawed Apple machine, odds are they'll be forced to make it right at some point, one way or another. If you buy a flawed PC there's a very good chance you're just screwed.

Well, I am sorry, but I will have to disagree with you. Using "whataboutism" is always a poor defense. The bottom line is more people are happy with Dells, Lenovo, HP, and Microsoft than Apple these days. None of these PC makers have double down on their flaws in the way that Apple has. Dell does not have six plus repair programs in place for faulty designs. There are not multiple class action lawsuits against Lenovo or the others. So no, I think that Apple is far worse in many regards.

The reason that Apple gets brutalized is because they are the ones that started the mud slinging at others. Remember those PC vs Apple ads?

 

[LeeW]

As much as it works my nerves to see people reflexively defend Apple no matter what, there are plenty who go just as far in the opposite direction.

Agreed, although I generally find that those who are overly critical are doing so for a reason. Many I see on here like that are very longstanding Apple supporters, the type that was with Apple long before it was fashionable to have an iPod or iPhone.

Those people are just so disappointed (myself included) in Apple of late and that is what drives them to be so critical. If Apple had a complete reversal of thinking tomorrow, they (we) would come back to the MBP as an example.

The way I see it? Apple is now seen more as a fashion brand, that is where it's gone wrong. Pandering to the customer base that was created from the iPod/iPhone/iPad devices and turning their backs on those that kept them afloat long enough to dominate the market with those devices.

Their devices go for looks first, usability second, that was never the Apple of old. But hey times change

 

[maflynn]

Apple is raking in the billions because they have increased product margins and kept people in the ecosystem. So many people buy MacBooks as status items, or because its too hard to leave the ecosystem, or they love MacOS too much to go to Windows. Doesn't necessarily mean they're super satisfied, it means that it is 'Good Enough'. Sadly while it brings in the money 'Good Enough' isn't my idea of making the best products for people.

I remember there was a segment of people buying into the "think different" Now I feel its more herd mentality (I don't mean that negatively), they're buying it because everyone else is buying it


I think with the price point of the Mac being so high and the negative press, I do think the there's a shift away, not a seismic shift, or anything dramatic but do I believe people are re-thinking their choices for a laptop. Maybe its me on the outside looking in, but my perspective has shifted and in many respects we've put up with so many compromises that now that I'm on a PC, I'm amazed at what's available and nearly all at a lower price point.

 

[pshufd]

I remember there was a segment of people buying into the "think different" Now I feel its more herd mentality (I don't mean that negatively), they're buying it because everyone else is buying it
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I think with the price point of the Mac being so high and the negative press, I do think the there's a shift away, not a seismic shift, or anything dramatic but do I believe people are re-thinking their choices for a laptop. Maybe its me on the outside looking in, but my perspective has shifted and in many respects we've put up with so many compromises that now that I'm on a PC, I'm amazed at what's available and nearly all at a lower price point.

I was in a meeting like that picture. It was the Mozilla confab in Whistler in 2008. I thought that I was at an Apple conference. Back then, Apple MacBook Pros weren't quite cool yet.

 

[Suture]

Wasn't expecting that intro, but well done. He's one of the few reviewers that I actually look for on YouTube for insight.

 

[SoyCapitanSoyCapitan]

You are seriously mistaken. There are many "creatives" that use Windows.

Take a large network of creatives who rely on the Finder's features such as Labels, Quick Look, thumbnail support for just about any media format, proper color profile support, etc. Tell them to move to Windows.


You will suicide their whole workflow. You will destroy their efficiency. I challenge you to go right now to send an email to any such company manager, tell them to move to Windows and give up macOS features. Then wait for the reaction.


No Labels in File Explorer, no Quick Look, doesn't accurately support many modern image and video color profiles, no thumbnail support for many common files types such as Photoshop Document (.PSD).

Keep tell me I'm seriously mistaken. If someone like me ever see someone like you in any workplace you gonna get kick straight out the door.

 

[maflynn]

Keep tell me I'm seriously mistaken.

Have you ever considered that your company may be one of the few or only companies that built their workflow on labels?

You love labels, we get it because that's all you seem to post about now. But there are many ways to skin a cat, and most large networks are not Mac centered and yet team members easily function efficiently.

No Labels in File Explorer, no Quick Look, doesn't accurately support many modern image and video color profiles, no thumbnail support for many common files types such as Photoshop Document (.PSD).

*cough* Adobe Bridge. Of the creatives folks that I know, they use bridge. It would not be professional suicide to have people use the tools they already have access too. I'd say Bridge is more flexible and powerful as a DAM then the Finder is.

 

[doitdada]

*cough* Adobe Bridge. Of the creatives folks that I know, they use bridge. It would not be professional suicide to have people use the tools they already have access too. I'd say Bridge is more flexible and powerful as a DAM then the Finder is.

Agree, entrylevel and barebone OS functionality has never been a part of the professional software suite. It is good to have above basic functionality, but it is seldom sufficient in more complex environments where you need to deliver fast and precise. The iPhone has in many ways continued the legacy that Steve brought to the Mac, by bringing advanced functionality to handheld devices like he did with iMovie and other prosumer software on the Mac.

I think the line between consumers and professionals is blending all the time, so I no longer try to define the two by software, but rather by usage.

 

[Newtons Apple]

Until Apple comes back to their senses, it is ThinkPad for me!

 

[Salaryman Ryan]

The video was more entertaining then I expected. I lost it when I heard Tim Cook's voice. Sigh, as much I love MacOS I totally agree with him. I actually took a hard look at some PC options and was tempted to switch but I decided that I liked MacOS so much and got an 8 core iMac instead for my 4k video editing and keep my aging 2015 MacBook Pro for my portable needs.

If Apple continues to treat the Mac like a hobby I might eventually make the switch. That would be a sad day for me.

 

[Jimmy James]

Lenovo is a great brand as I posted in another thread, I paid 2286 for my Thinkpad which would have run me in the 4500+ range on the MBP. Maybe not half but the price difference is large. I get a better keyboard, replaceable components, a higher resolution touch screen

If you like Macs, that's great, but don't dismiss the competitors with a wave of a hand, because they simply do not have the number of issues that that we've had to deal with on the MBP over the years.

I read about Lenovo previously installing software to report, at least, basic usage statistics. That’s a full stop for me. If anything in tech ever mattered I believe that privacy and data handling practices matter more.

I won’t buy one. I have one I’m required to keep for work and I like the hardware. But buy it with my own money for my own personal use? Nope.

 

[pshufd]

I read about Lenovo previously installing software to report, at least, basic usage statistics. That’s a full stop for me. If anything in tech ever mattered I believe that privacy and data handling practices matter more.

I won’t buy one. I have one I’m required to keep for work and I like the hardware. But buy it with my own money for my own personal use? Nope.

That's definitely a red flag. They do make very nice hardware though. I think that they currently have the best hardware in the mobile workstation category. I do wish that Dell and HP were in this category. Dell and HP make gaming laptops and I guess that they expect mobile workstation customers to buy those. Lenovo is nice in that they cater to the professional and creatives market with something that isn't aimed at gamers.

RoG has a nice selection of gaming systems but they are still aimed at gamers.

 

[maflynn]

read about Lenovo previously installing software to report, at least, basic usage statistics. That’s a full stop for me. If anything in tech ever mattered I believe that privacy and data handling practices matter more.

That blew up in their face, I don't think that affected thinkpads when it happened (I'm not sure to be honest), but in any event, my laptop came with zero bloatware, other then the lenovo app that you use to manage the laptop

 

[pshufd]

That blew up in their face, I don't think that affected thinkpads when it happened (I'm not sure to be honest), but in any event, my laptop came with zero bloatware, other then the lenovo app that you use to manage the laptop

Lenovo is big in corporate sales and I'd guess that these big companies scrutinize purchases closely, particularly since they also install Enterprise-grade security software.

 

[turbineseaplane]

As we have hashed over many times here before the problem with the laptop line is that they decided to have a design ethos that optimizes around and prioritizes thin and light for every single model.

It’s simply not necessary for every single one of the laptops to be as thin and light as possible.

They could absolutely make something a little bit more like the 2015 15inch models in terms of thickness/size and professional users would love it.

 

[pshufd]

They could absolutely make something a little bit more like the 2015 15inch models in terms of thickness/size and professional users would love it.

Especially professional users - as they'd get less throttling with a thicker design.

 

[madfry]

You think Apple is bad?

Wait till you immerse yourself in the astounding world of PC laptops, especially when things go bump in the night. Say what you will about Apple, they do actually try and fix problems on the products. There is a reason why customer satisfaction is quite high.

Once you go to PC land however...

Microsoft did their best to reign in the craziness, to try and at least have some standards. I don't think they actually wanted to get involved in manufacturing pc, but they had to because whoever does market research for the manufacturers often at times seems to do their research by just listening to a vocal segment of the users.

At one time, almost every company that put out so called gaming PC all backlit their damned laptop with eye gouging RED LED backlight. Now all of them jumped on the RGB bandwagon.

Microsoft did try. Precision trackpad program, signature pc with no bloatware, etc etc. Yet the manufacturers keep on putting out products that matches Apple prices, but with flaws that should not exist in such expensive products. No one using pc laptops I know "loved" their laptop.

Most tolerate it like the would a crazy uncle.

 

[pshufd]

You think Apple is bad?

Wait till you immerse yourself in the astounding world of PC laptops, especially when things go bump in the night. Say what you will about Apple, they do actually try and fix problems on the products. There is a reason why customer satisfaction is quite high.

Once you go to PC land however...

Microsoft did their best to reign in the craziness, to try and at least have some standards. I don't think they actually wanted to get involved in manufacturing pc, but they had to because whoever does market research for the manufacturers often at times seems to do their research by just listening to a vocal segment of the users.

At one time, almost every company that put out so called gaming PC all backlit their damned laptop with eye gouging RED LED backlight. Now all of them jumped on the RGB bandwagon.

Microsoft did try. Precision trackpad program, signature pc with no bloatware, etc etc. Yet the manufacturers keep on putting out products that matches Apple prices, but with flaws that should not exist in such expensive products. No one using pc laptops I know "loved" their laptop.

Most tolerate it like the would a crazy uncle.

I have done my research and did see the problems that people had with Windows laptops in the appropriate forums. But it's often easier to work around the problems because it's a lot easier to change the hardware. Windows trackpads are universally bad - but I use an external mouse 95% of the time. If you have problems with the MacBook Pro keyboard, you could use an external keyboard. I use an external keyboard 90% of the time. But most people don't like to do that (I make the suggestion frequently as a workaround).

With the Windows stuff, you can put in more RAM yourself. The Windows laptop companies charge as much as Apple for additional RAM but they make it easy for you to upgrade it yourself. Same with SSD - and, in may cases, they give you multiple SSD slots or bays. Yes, Apple's SSDs may be faster and use less power but people using mobile workstations are plugged in most of the time.

GPU options - even replaceable GPU options.

Better cooling. 17.3 inch displays. 4K displays. Legacy and USB-C/Thunderbolt ports. SD Card Readers.

Everyone has bugs. Apple has had more than their usual share lately. Maybe the 2019s fix the majority of problems. We won't know for a while. Apple has made it harder, though, to love Apple like we did in 2014 and 2015 with the laptops. Other options, of course, are the Mac Mini and iMac. I'm hoping that they do a Mac Pro soon. Or even something in-between the Mac Pro and Mac Mini.

 

[Mudcrutch]

To be honest I am sick and tired of watching YouTube videos of people that have somehow become experts in computing. Everybody is trying to capitalise on the keyboard issues and make money. Most of these people have actually not a clue about what they are talking and are not technical at all..They are just interested in making money on YouTube.

The "should you upgrade?" videos are horrible as well. These youtubers rush to get the latest spec bump and make a big deal over the non-issue of upgrading. Well of course if you have a fairly new macbook you don't need to upgrade! But they want the drama and views that come with it.

 

[pshufd]

The "should you upgrade?" videos are horrible as well. These youtubers rush to get the latest spec bump and make a big deal over the non-issue of upgrading. Well of course if you have a fairly new macbook you don't need to upgrade! But they want the drama and views that come with it.

I actually do have a MSCS degree from a top-40 school and I find these videos entertaining. They talk more about technical aspects of computers; not computing per se. I don't think that they claim to talk about computing. Computing is really about mathematics and it's difficult to convey to a general audience.

 

[Thysanoptera]

I have done my research and did see the problems that people had with Windows laptops in the appropriate forums. But it's often easier to work around the problems because it's a lot easier to change the hardware.

Correctamundo. All the issues I had with PC laptops I was able to fix/correct myself. I have a pretty much a procedure, when I buy a new - first check for couple of days if it has any obvious faults warranting a return, then take a screwdriver, upgrade RAM/SSD, change TIM, pads etc, load Windows from scratch, search which drivers work best (not always the ones form manufacturer). Takes a day or two, but at the end I have a machine that works flawlessly for years. If something pops later, spare parts are readily available, cheap and easily replaceable. Of course, there is an emerging trend among PC makers to glue/solder everything, but at least you have a choice to select one that is not.

I gave Gigabyte P34g some time ago to my mother in law, after a year I got it back in multiple pieces, I have no idea what she did to it. About $30 later I had the chassis and hinges, put it all together and now my daughter has a Minecraft machine, its still good, 4 core i7 with gtx860m. To be fair though, her husband got 2011 13 inch MBP from me, way before that P34 and it still looks and works like brand new, so I gave her my 2012 Retina 15 inch, it is not like I look forward to seeing her every time she has an issue with her laptop.

 

[madfry]

I have done my research and did see the problems that people had with Windows laptops in the appropriate forums. But it's often easier to work around the problems because it's a lot easier to change the hardware. Windows trackpads are universally bad - but I use an external mouse 95% of the time. If you have problems with the MacBook Pro keyboard, you could use an external keyboard. I use an external keyboard 90% of the time. But most people don't like to do that (I make the suggestion frequently as a workaround).

With the Windows stuff, you can put in more RAM yourself. The Windows laptop companies charge as much as Apple for additional RAM but they make it easy for you to upgrade it yourself. Same with SSD - and, in may cases, they give you multiple SSD slots or bays. Yes, Apple's SSDs may be faster and use less power but people using mobile workstations are plugged in most of the time.

GPU options - even replaceable GPU options.

Better cooling. 17.3 inch displays. 4K displays. Legacy and USB-C/Thunderbolt ports. SD Card Readers.

Everyone has bugs. Apple has had more than their usual share lately. Maybe the 2019s fix the majority of problems. We won't know for a while. Apple has made it harder, though, to love Apple like we did in 2014 and 2015 with the laptops. Other options, of course, are the Mac Mini and iMac. I'm hoping that they do a Mac Pro soon. Or even something in-between the Mac Pro and Mac Mini.

Huh?

Soldered RAM isn't an Apple thing anymore. PC manufacturers have been soldering RAM for ages now. Practically most of the XPS line RAM's are soldered. Even worse, most of the time you need to crack open the laptop to find out whether or not you could upgrade because not all manufacturers provide a precise guide what is in the laptop in the first place.

SSD? Sure. Until you find out that you need a BIOS update for the laptop to detect the SSD. Which the manufacturer may or may not deign to give you one.

GPU option. Sure. Then you find out the exhaust vent warped the aluminium on your screen (happened to my Swift). Better cooling? Much as everyone would like to think throttling is an Apple thing, it isn't. Crack open a standard laptop and you see the similar design of the cooling you have on most laptops.

4K? Stupid on a windows machine. You'd have to set the scaling to a bigger percentage, and voila! Messed up legacy app which included the notifications on even native windows app!

I could go on and on. In the end, I don't really care if Dave or the other youtubers keep bashing Apple. They have their angle. But don't make it like everything in PC land is like this promised land of perfection.

 

[pshufd]

Huh?

Soldered RAM isn't an Apple thing anymore. PC manufacturers have been soldering RAM for ages now. Practically most of the XPS line RAM's are soldered. Even worse, most of the time you need to crack open the laptop to find out whether or not you could upgrade because not all manufacturers provide a precise guide what is in the laptop in the first place.

SSD? Sure. Until you find out that you need a BIOS update for the laptop to detect the SSD. Which the manufacturer may or may not deign to give you one.

GPU option. Sure. Then you find out the exhaust vent warped the aluminium on your screen (happened to my Swift). Better cooling? Much as everyone would like to think throttling is an Apple thing, it isn't. Crack open a standard laptop and you see the similar design of the cooling you have on most laptops.

4K? Stupid on a windows machine. You'd have to set the scaling to a bigger percentage, and voila! Messed up legacy app which included the notifications on even native windows app!

I could go on and on. In the end, I don't really care if Dave or the other youtubers keep bashing Apple. They have their angle. But don't make it like everything in PC land is like this promised land of perfection.

Take a look at the Lenovo P72. It has two NVMe slots and one 2.5 inch bay.

It has replaceable RAM, up to 128 GB of RAM.

There are many laptops in the Mobile Workstation category where it is easy to work on these systems, mainly because they are so large. You get a lot of room for stuff in a 17.3 inch screen x +1 inch thick package.

Everything in PC land isn't perfect. But you have a wide variety of choice to find out what is as close to perfection as you can find for you. I'm sure that you'd agree that Apple isn't that place for most people.

 

[Queen6]

Huh?

Soldered RAM isn't an Apple thing anymore. PC manufacturers have been soldering RAM for ages now. Practically most of the XPS line RAM's are soldered. Even worse, most of the time you need to crack open the laptop to find out whether or not you could upgrade because not all manufacturers provide a precise guide what is in the laptop in the first place.

SSD? Sure. Until you find out that you need a BIOS update for the laptop to detect the SSD. Which the manufacturer may or may not deign to give you one.

GPU option. Sure. Then you find out the exhaust vent warped the aluminium on your screen (happened to my Swift). Better cooling? Much as everyone would like to think throttling is an Apple thing, it isn't. Crack open a standard laptop and you see the similar design of the cooling you have on most laptops.

4K? Stupid on a windows machine. You'd have to set the scaling to a bigger percentage, and voila! Messed up legacy app which included the notifications on even native windows app!

I could go on and on. In the end, I don't really care if Dave or the other youtubers keep bashing Apple. They have their angle. But don't make it like everything in PC land is like this promised land of perfection.

I switched to Windows 10 in 2016 and across multiple systems not had any issue, nor my 15 year old who inherited a Surface Book. Safe to say that Windows too isn't as bad as some would like to paint.

Current primary notebook, just dropped in another 16GB of RAM, installed software tweaked the settings and it does this;

For my current professional needs, I don't need keyboard's that are questionable, CPU's that choke and a stream of excuses...

Q-6