David "Mubarak" Cameron wants power to shut down and monitor communications

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by 0dev, Aug 12, 2011.

  1. 0dev macrumors 68040

    0dev

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    #1
    Anyone still in doubt about the British government's intent to enforce internet censorship by exploiting bad events for scaremongering need only read this:

    Via BBC News

    Similar to how Bush used 9/11 to push through the Patriot Act, Cameron wants to use these riots to push through more government controls over freedom of speech and the free flow of information. Do you think he gets his leadership lessons from dictators or George Orwell novels?

    Aside from the obvious civil liberty infringements, it's important to note that, in times of distress and disorder, people naturally want to make sure loved ones are safe, and the government would be preventing people from doing that while the troublemakers find other networks of communication or just use some goddamn proxies.

    In fact, even the reasoning behind this is rubbish - the riots are a great tragedy, no argument there, but riots have been happening for centuries before technology existed. This will not solve anything, it will simply take away our rights.

    "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." -Benjamin Franklin
     
  2. Shrink macrumors G3

    Shrink

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    #2
    If the nice folks in the Saudi government had thought of this terrific idea they could have shut down that little unpleasantness that occurred recently - and maintained that lovely dictatorship they had going. :rolleyes:

    Giving up freedoms (see also:Homeland Security Act) is a very slippery slope.
     
  3. MOFS macrumors 65816

    MOFS

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    #3
    PRSI in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ...

    It's all a bit Orwellian. Everytime we have a national disaster the government uses it as an excuse to instal ever more draconian laws (cf July 7 and ID cards). We just need the perpetual war to complete the cycle.
     
  4. 184550 Guest

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    #5
    You are aware that the 'liberty' that he refers to in the quote, taken from the late 1700s, was in reference to the question of slavery in the US?

    If you look at the orignal historic basis for that quote, it has zero connection to the topic you're applying it to. Therefore, how can you be sure what Franklin's opinion would be this topic?

    You may find this interesting. Here's another bit. And another.
     
  5. ChristianVirtual macrumors 601

    ChristianVirtual

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    #6
    The same people next time will request China to stop censorship ... but you know what: we at least elect those; finally our fault.
     
  6. 0dev thread starter macrumors 68040

    0dev

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    #7
    Heh, I actually never knew that. Consider me a little wiser than I was yesterday.

    The point still stands in the context of this issue, though.

    I imagine both that and Tor would get a lot of use if the government enforced this, and at the end of the day they'd only make criminal investigations harder in the future as everyone takes steps to hide themselves and encrypt their data to bypass censorship.
     
  7. Lankyman macrumors 68000

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    #8
    From the truly disgusting TV images I have witnessed this week, the me me me fill your boots mentality of the cerebrally challenged I'm with the PM all the way on this. Sometimes civil liberties needs to take a back seat in the face of violent disorder and looting. Why the Police didn't resort to water cannon and rubber bullets is a mystery, personally I would have advocated live rounds.
     
  8. ChristianVirtual macrumors 601

    ChristianVirtual

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    #9
    Water and rubber, ok. Pepper spray, if needed. Of course the police need to a
    stop and arrest those stupid people with violent behaviors. But real bullets are different. Please don't stop using your brain. We are not in Libya or Syria where sniper are in place to shoot down protestors.

    Please focus back on the original topic like control of communication.
     
  9. 0dev thread starter macrumors 68040

    0dev

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    #10
    The police, IMO, should be allowed to use the appropriate force for any crime. If you have big gangs of thugs they should be able to use what they feel is necessary.

    However, I do not see the justification for the blocking and intercepting of communications. Perhaps you should explain your reasoning behind supporting it?
     
  10. gnasher729 macrumors P6

    gnasher729

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    #11
    Gangs using BBM to coordinate attacks (some people causing trouble, getting police attention, then others rob places where the police just left). Seems good to prevent this. Intercepts without warrant are illegal. However, scanning BBM archives is not and helps making arrests after the crime has happened. BTW. Over 2000 arrests so far.
     
  11. ChristianVirtual macrumors 601

    ChristianVirtual

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    #12
    Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_5 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8L1 Safari/6533.18.5)

    But next time the bad guys using encryption which leads to further restrictions in that area.
    Or shutdown landline phone, too ?
    Soon you will need a personal chipcard to login into the net ... Spiral of escalation ... We fixing sympthons. But what is the root cause ?
     
  12. Lankyman macrumors 68000

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    #13
    Simple, the perps were using social media and other forms of communications to organise the riots in order to carry out the looting so the authorities need to switch off those lines of communications and fast. I also think RIM needs to do something in order for the security services to be able to decrypt the messages.

    With civil liberties comes responsibilities and if people aren't prepared to live up to those responsibilities then we don't deserve them. Sometimes the many have to suffer because of the few.
     
  13. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #14
    This could only happen over Jim's cold dead body, but not even then.

    Shut down the cell towers first. At least they are in your own country.

    Fix the problem, not the symptom.
     
  14. Lankyman macrumors 68000

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    #15
    Well Jim's body must be well and truly cold by now then as he's already had to bow to pressure from India and Saudi Arabia plus it is rumoured some other countries in that region. :rolleyes:
     
  15. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #16
    Sad, but necessary to not risk abandoning their clients in those countries.

    And to keep their business. ;)

    But doing the same in a First World country, with the freedoms that we have, would result in massive flight from their client base.

    Corporations, social agencies, hospitals, all value encryption, to keep client files confidential.

    The option is to have a key generator on each end of a computer line, so that ISP's cannot be hacked to give up sensitive data. My niece has this set-up, with the hospital she works for, remotely.
     
  16. 0dev thread starter macrumors 68040

    0dev

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    #17
    Alright, so if one person, say, runs someone over (as actually did happen during the riots), does that mean the government should shut down all the roads and ban all cars? No, of course not, that makes no sense.

    Likewise, of a small group of people misuse communication tools, there's no reason to block all of them for everyone, especially since any block would be easy to get around, if you're tech savvy enough, by using proxies, VPN, or even simply using a different protocol such as WhatsApp, which - as it's based in the US only - is hard to get message logs from, therefore making it harder for the police to investigate.

    Family members and friends of people affected by riots, however, won't want to mess around with proxies, they will be upset and stressed by the possibility of a loved one being in danger and would want to contact them to make sure they're OK, and having to circumvent some stupid censorship system will just make it worse for them. And, of course, a lot of these people may be older folk who don't have the right technical skills to do this stuff.

    RIM does have a master key to decrypt messages, because the UAE and other oppressive governments made them build one into the system, but they shouldn't really have had to do that.

    You've also got to look at the future. At the moment we're all panicking over these recent events, but once that's worn off we'll look back and what we'll have is rights infringing laws which will almost certainly be abused. Look at the Cleanfeed internet block system for example - created to stop pedophile sites, now being abused by the anti-piracy lobbies.

    So, basically, this system will do ****** all to help prevent riots but it will affect the liberties of innocent people across the country.
     
  17. Lankyman macrumors 68000

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    #18
    I'm sorry but if a country is under threat from serious rioting and a breakdown of law and order and it subsequently transpires that some of these events are being orchestrated by individuals or groups using encrypted communications then the government of that country must be able to restore order by whatever means necessary if it is for the greater good.

    Most people have nothing to hide so would not argue against this course of action - I know I wouldn't. As for anti-piracy well again that is tantamount to theft and should be stopped as it's putting creative industries at risk so we all suffer again because of the greedy selfish few.
     
  18. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #19
    So, your ok with your trusted representatives knowing all about you??

    Have we got a new census form for YOU!!!
     
  19. 0dev thread starter macrumors 68040

    0dev

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    #20
    So you'd be OK with the government going through all your messages for the "greater good", would you?

    We've got to keep a grip in times of panic and not risk having liberties taken from us. Politicians are sitting there ready to pounce and take control of whatever they can. The more power they have the better as far as they're concerned. This is not in the interest of the people, though, is it? We all have a basic right to privacy. And remember, these are the same people who fiddle their expenses and steal whatever they can from us - they're not trustworthy, and they aren't there to protect our interests. They're there because they want power.

    Why not send me a hard drive with all your e-mails, documents, contacts, usernames, passwords, etc on it then? After all, you have nothing to hide, right? And obviously, the only people in the world who care about privacy are criminals! :rolleyes:

    LOL, considering the entertainment industry has seen rapidly increasing profits in the past decade, you clearly haven't got a clue what you're talking about. No wonder you've got no problem with the government monitoring all your information - you're a sheep. Entrainment industry tell you they need more money, they must be telling the truth! Cameron tells you he needs all your personal information for the "greater good", he can't possibly be lying! :rolleyes:
     
  20. Lankyman macrumors 68000

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    #21
    Baa! I heard similar things from the looters trying to justify their position - speaks volumes about your values.

    Baa! As for RIM it transpires they have already put out a statement that they abide by RIPA so that has to be a plus. Speaking of values and personal responsibility one can only wonder why the most popular phone in the UK among young people is the Blackberry
     
  21. 0dev thread starter macrumors 68040

    0dev

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    #22
    If you're referring to my statement on copyright infringement, surely you're not trying to compare that to looting? :rolleyes:

    So they have, so they have. This allows the police to look at all the messages of people who happened to be in the area the riots took place. This means if you live in a house near the riots, you will have your messages read. If you happened to be driving by the area, you will have your messages read. So, a victory? :rolleyes:

    I also notice you haven't addressed any of my real concerns. I guess no one in authority has told you enough rubbish to repeat.
     
  22. gnasher729, Aug 15, 2011
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011

    gnasher729 macrumors P6

    gnasher729

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    #23
    The "bad guys" in question are generally barely intelligent enough to use a Blackberry. Some of them were stupid enough to take photos of themselves and their loot and post it on Facebook. No worry that they could do anything clever.


    If you sent messages while you happened to be driving by the area, that would be an immediate £60 fine per message. No need to actually read the message.
     
  23. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

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    #24
    Not unlike some Apple users, who buy the product because it's basically fool-proof. :p
     
  24. 0dev thread starter macrumors 68040

    0dev

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    #25
    Oh I beg to differ. Though a lot of these people are stupid, a lot of teens are also very tech savy, and the tech savy ones tell the rest how to do things. In this case, setting up a proxy or VPN on your phone, which is generally a peace of piss, so the idiots will go to the slightly nerdy guy and get him or her to set it up for them.

    Hell, I know a 17 year old who installed a hacked bootloader on his phone so he could run CyanogenMod on it. And another who knows his way around a BlackBerry very well, and actually helped me to fix mine when it was going very slowly (by using some relatively unknown keyboard shortcuts to get into advanced settings menus).

    What you're driving along in the area and someone sends you a message? Or if you have to stop because police are blocking the road, so you get your phone out to tell your family what's happening? These people will have had all their recent messages read by the authorities.
     

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