Democrats fight back...

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by blackfox, Jul 22, 2017.

  1. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #1
  2. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #2
    Republicans are going to lose either house or senate control come 2018 and imho it's on purpose
     
  3. jpietrzak8 macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #3
    I like it. Yes, they are trying to come up with a "catchy" phrase which, in politics, always seems to fall flat. :) But concentrating on a positive message is, I think, the appropriate counterpoint to the all-about-the-base effort of Trump. The Republicans are effectively ceding the center in their attempts to fire up the Right; now is the best time in years to try and capture it away from them.

    You want to recapture the heartland? Send out a pitch, any sort of pitch, that you're going to return stable long-term economic growth to this region. People will run from the current Republican madness into your arms.
     
  4. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #4
    The Dems are not going to flip the Senate in 2018, too many seats are up for re-election. They were on track to do it in 2016 until it all went south over the top of the ticket.

    The House is another story, they might flip that, 24 seat gain is not out of the question if Trump keeps helping the GOP screw up.

    It's much harder to flip an incumbent Senator out of his seat than a House member. The US Senators have at least state-wide name recognition. The other guy might be a Congressman but the Senator's name has been on the Page One of all the newspapers in the state. Congressmen make local paper front pages, mostly, and sometimes only when they did sometnhig bad.

    So with the House it's only district-wide. When the campaigns roll around again, the contest in a district could seem like between two strangers and who the heck knows who's the incumbent, if we are not politically active.

    That makes it easier to flip a House seat than if everyone knows the incumbent's name. Some years there are a lot of new congressmen who are surprised they beat the incumbent, and don't seem to realize that they're in there because of a mental coin-toss by voters unfamiliar with both candidates when they got in the voting booth. In a year like that it's the party message that can indeed make the difference.

    In 2018 I think the voters may bring their own message, which is going to be more like "time to clean house" (again?) and the Dems' new message would be a secondary boost to people wanting to sweep the GOP out.

    Heh, I'd get a real kick out of seeing some GOP seats get primaried from their left for a change. That's probably a pipe dream but they are after all pretty far to the right having dragged in Donald's swell core group in the 2016 primaries.
     
  5. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #5
    Trump IMHO Is not the problem. The GOPs failure to act is
     
  6. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #6
    True. However, he's ticking them off by not helping. Half the time he's sulking like "bring it to me and I'll sign it already". The other half he's alienating swing senators by threatening them, and in ways that stir them up, too, so they're not reliable counts when the GOP is trying to whip some other legislation. That senator from Nevada, for instance. That went well. :rolleyes:

    You can poke a stick at a Senator only so long before he gets out that arcane Senate rulebook to make your life in the White House a living hell regarding legislation. He' like a critter who right now isn't hungry, but next time that stick taps him on the nose, it reminds him that breakfast was a long time ago.
     
  7. DearthnVader, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017

    DearthnVader macrumors 6502

    DearthnVader

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    #7
    All things being equal, the (D) may have a chance to flip the House, but all things are not equal, most of those seats are gerrymander to hell and back for the GOP.

    I think their best chance in in the Senate, tho it's an uphill climb.

    Democrats are going to have to get on message about something, anything, that has traction with Independents and swing voters, but that may mean an about face on some issues, and I don't think Democrats are willing to do that.

    The Democrats need a house cleaning, much like the GOP had with the Tea Party, a real grass roots movement that has them fearing being primaried by someone that is more in touch with primary voters.

    Democrates, and party policy, are out of touch with voters. While many of their parties positions are popular in poles, the same people that vote in poles do not always vote in elections, or they don't always vote for the same issues.

    A pole could ask," Do you support gay marriage?" and 60% of the people may say yes, but that doesn't mean Democrats are going to win any elections off that issue. It maybe that if you asked those same people what they feel is the most important issue, it maybe "Jobs and the economy".
     
  8. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #8
    He does have a point though, if you bitch for 7 years about something you should have something to table the moment your guy gets in office. As Trump said, his pen is ready when they are.
     
  9. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #9
    Well said. Possibly more appreciated by Schumer than by McConnell, though... imo Mitch may have to go across the aisle for help from Dems, with GOP still dragging feet on sustainability issues (or flashing their desire to repeal) and then both sides will ultimately figure they can spread "the blame" -- instead of engaging with enthusiasm and trying to fix it right for the people and then share the credit? We live in crazy times.
     
  10. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #10
    Nailed it. Honestly - when it comes to Healthcare I don't care which side wants to claim victory. Healthcare isn't a partisan issue. Although it's been made one which is shameful. My two issues (or at least 2 of) with the Republicans is that they haven't put together anything worthy of being signed yes AND they had 7 years to put something together. Unless they thought they wouldn't have a (R) President for a long while. Which I doubt they did.

    I also think that the Democrats should have been working on ways to improve/adjust the ACA so that it could sustain better.

    So I take issue with both sides. But the Dems weren't the one screaming about it for 7 years. So that's on the Republicans.
     
  11. Zwopple macrumors regular

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    Trump will likely sink the GOP because he'll continue to depress their 2018 turnout.

    Elections in the USA (even at the local level) are 100% about turnout since less than 50% even show up to vote at the polls (even worse in midterms).

    @DearthnVader the Dems would be absolutely stupid to abandon progressive positions like Gay Marriage and Pro-Choice because it's what the base turns out for.

    The problem is Hillary Clinton suppressed the Dem's turnout (Trump did so to the GOP too but a bit less). Sanders probably would have won and probably would have gotten a Senate majority because of turnout.

    So yes Democrats do need to get on message, but for Senate/House elections they absolutely need to focus on messaging that will drive registered Democrats to give a **** and head to the polls, they do not need to focus on messaging that will flip existing GOP/Independents to vote for them.

    The best wet dream they can hope for is continual Russian drip drip drip (and 1 or more bombshells), Trump continuing to act like a complete moron and the GOP not getting anything done. The combination of those three would massively suppress the GOP turnout allowing for a steamroll.
    --- Post Merged, Jul 23, 2017 ---
     
  12. jpietrzak8 macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #12
    You're absolutely right, that is what the base turns out for, and would certainly guarantee Democratic majorities in the 2018 election!

    ...But only in the districts they already control. It would guarantee continued Republican control of the House and Senate, because their base is already fired up by Trump, and will be further riled up if the Democratic Party lurches further to the left.

    The simple fact is, people more and more are not voting because they are neither hard Left nor hard Right. Digging deeper into your own party's base means nothing more than perpetuating the status quo. If you want to gain power, you need to make some sort of argument that the ever-expanding pool of "independents" will like, rather than what the extremely excited but ever-shrinking pools of Right and Left radicals prefer.
     
  13. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #13
    This is what some Trump supporters here are starting to say. But they don't like that snark about Trump saying he's got the pen so bring him something to sign

    There's a sullen quality of comment abroad in the USA lately I'd say, from prowling around more than a few midsized daily newspapers in the past week or so, just out of curiosity. The Dems just loathe Trump and can still barely believe he was elected for any reason much less "lesser evil". The Trump voters are struggling now with annoyance over the legislative logjams, and as Jack Shafer pointed out in one of his recent columns, there's also the unhappiness of what happens when a "witch hunt" looks to have turned up a few witches after all.


    Of course ol' Jack is a piece of work (worth the reading, imo). I mean you know a guy who always wraps his columns with footnotes describing that week's ways of reaching him has realized that's one of the ways to get you to read him at all. The wrap on his column about Spicey's departure was pretty rich, lol the reference to Bokononism ties in pretty good considering Spicey's job was to lie his ass off for Trump.

    How else did Trump abuse Spicer? He denied the man, a confessing member of the Catholic Church, a chance to meet the Pope during a trip to the Vatican. Send papal encyclicals to Shafer.Politico@gmail.com. My email alerts practice Buddhism. My Twitter feed is 100 percent Hebrew. And my RSS feed observes Bokononism.

    From Wikipedia, for those who haven't read Cat's Cradle:

    Bokononism (/ˈboʊkoʊnɒnˌɪzəm/)[citation needed] is a fictitious religion invented by Kurt Vonnegut and practiced by many of the characters in his novel Cat's Cradle. Many of the sacred texts of Bokononism were written in the form of calypsos.

    Bokononism is based on the concept of foma, which are defined as harmless untruths. A foundation of Bokononism is that the religion, including its texts, is formed entirely of lies; however, one who believes and adheres to these lies will have peace of mind, and perhaps live a good life. The primary tenet of Bokononism is to "Live by the foma that make you brave and kind and healthy and happy."
    Like I said, Shafer's a piece of work. He might be my Herblock of this round of presidential scandal, since no cartoonist has ascended to the heights yet for me.
     
  14. TonyC28 macrumors 65816

    TonyC28

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    #14
    “When you lose to somebody who has 40 percent popularity, you don’t blame other things — Comey, Russia — you blame yourself,” Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer (D-N.Y.) said in an interview previewing the new plan. “So what did we do wrong? People didn’t know what we stood for, just that we were against Trump. And still believe that.”

    This is a HUGE moment for the Dems. Finally they are looking in the mirror. Now the Republicans better take notice because it appears the Dems have finally figured out the problem.
     
  15. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #15
    Realising you have a problem is a long way from realising what the problem is which is a long way from fixing it.
    That was why Pelosi said "is not a course correction, but it’s a presentation correction". Kinda undermines the rebrand I think. Saying it is all just a presentation thing somewhat reduces the chances of people thinking something has actually changed.
     
  16. RootBeerMan macrumors 6502

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    #16
    And I must say that I am looking forward to it. We need some good old fashioned gridlock and a few people in there not pushing the hard rights agenda. And, if we can get some people who will oppose Trump's horrible appointees (specifically Sessions) and stop them then we'll all be better off.
     
  17. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #17
    You are both right. Schumer's copping to the fact the message didn't get out there. Pelosi is doubling down and saying "and by the way there was nothing wrong with the platform that underlies the message." Schumer didn't go that far in his comments, that's all. It's not that either one of them thinks the platform has to be tweaked. What I think they need to do internally is figure out how the heck they can get some appropriations shoved around if they can regain the House.

    It remains to be seen whether the Dems will indeed focus on economic issues or keep hammering on social hot button issues which imo at least for the immediate future they should leave to advocacy groups or NGOs like the ACLU, SPLC to take to the public (and, to court).
     
  18. TonyC28 macrumors 65816

    TonyC28

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    #18
    I just mean that for them they needed to take this step and admit they lost and that they deserve some of the blame. I'll leave the Russia stuff for one of the many other threads, but I will say this about Schumer's comment: it seems that he is realizing that "yea but Russia" is not going to be a winning slogan in 2018 and 2020.
     
  19. steve knight macrumors 68020

    steve knight

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    #19
    trumps pen is ready for anything since he does not actually read what he signs unless it is 120 characters or less.
     
  20. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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    #20
    Lmao. On the phone. Otherwise I would tell you how wrong you are
     
  21. Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    #21
    The key is they now have to tell us why. Why are more regulations better? Why is a higher minimum wage better for the economy in general? Why are open borders and unchecked illegal immigration better?
     
  22. RootBeerMan macrumors 6502

    RootBeerMan

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    #22
    Don't let something like a phone call stop you. I prefer gridlock to having one party in control and wrecking things or pushing an agenda on large swathes of the population who disagree with it, regardless of which wing of the Boot On Your Neck Party it is. The hard right who are in control now are pathetic and a danger to the republic, just as the far left would be, Gridlock and not growing government is infinitely preferable to me.
     
  23. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #23
    I hate the "Better Deal" slogan. It's too calculated by half. "Better skills, better jobs, better pizza." :rolleyes:

    They shouldn't try to go off promising too many things at once.
    • Bolster the ACA by adding the public option.
    • Provide job retraining in the hardest-hit locations and occupations.
    • Fix infrastructure, including preparing coastal areas for the coming climate problems.
    • Get back into the Paris accord.
    And promote the cause. Let people know what you're doing for them, so they can feel invested in you.

    That's enough.
     
  24. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #24
    tbh I'm just afraid they'll fix their slogans up and then go back to slicing and dicing demographics and scheduling rallies to pick up the people that "should" end up voting for the Democrat at the top of the ticket.

    Where is what they have done for communities? There is stuff that's been done. So let's hear it. The track record. Let's hear it at each campaign stop.

    And you know, if there isn't some Dem achievement there at a stop they want to campaign at,,,, they better be prepared to point out how the other party hasn't done squat for people there [and leave off the word "either"]. Talk about how the other party actually blocked specific legislation the Dems proposed and cite the bill numbers to toss the press a bone. And make a point of focusing on doing something there early on next time around if Dems are lucky enough to win. Make the congresscritter come up with something tangible in some bipartisan legislation, in the worst case. He probably got some national committee funding and coattail votes to put him into his seat anyway, so he needs to put some effort in to show party and voters they made a good pick.

    The Democrats, I am sorry to say, are sometimes great wordsmiths when they pitch their ideas, and not so great at remembering to see if they kept a promise or just made it and then flipped balloons and a big thank you "to everybody!!!" at the inauguration. Maybe more than half those indie registrants s/b Dems but are disappointed ex-Dems, or else ghosts now because they rarely vote.

    I'm not saying the same thing doesn't happen to Republicans watching some of their registrants drift off to indie status. But, Republicans hold more local offices across the country, so they don't have that same sense of deprivation that Dems do in a year when they can't score a higher office win. From a feeling of loss at all levels, which is where a lot of red state Dems are coming from right now, comes the easy next step to apathy and failure to vote next time around.

    So the Dems very much need to work on the grassroots effort. It's a concern I have about this current "rebranding" talk by the minority leaders. You may call your dinghy a yacht if you like, hell call it an ocean liner, but if you are sailing anything then you have to maintain it or eventually you're going to drown.
     
  25. jpietrzak8 macrumors 65816

    jpietrzak8

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    #25
    Here's a promising sign: the return of the Blue Dogs! Democrats will need legislators like these if they ever want a solid majority. From a Politico article:

    Long-time Blue Dog lawmakers and staffers say they haven’t worked this closely with the caucus’ campaign arm since former Rep. Rahm Emanuel, now mayor of Chicago, ran the DCCC back in 2006 and led Democrats back to the House majority.

    Emanuel has said his key to success was choosing candidates who “reflected the temperament, tenor and culture of their district,” not somebody that just fit his image of a good recruit, including tapping centrists for more conservative districts.
    ...
    One senior Democrat derisively described the Blue Dogs as “window dressing” to which the Trump administration can point to say it pursued bipartisan avenues without really doing so.

    But the Blue Dogs shrug off the intraparty criticism, saying they’ve heard it before.

    “On the core issues that really reflect the Democratic Party, we have far, far more in common,” Costa said. “We are the bridge in trying to bring about bipartisan efforts and certainly the key, I think … if the Democrats are ever going to get into the majority again.”​

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/24/democrats-blue-dogs-eye-2018-comeback-240813
     

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