Diabetic girl dies as parents pray instead of calling for medical aid

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by yg17, Mar 29, 2008.

  1. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #1
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/03/28/wprayer128.xml


    Thoughts? IMO, if she would still be alive had she gotten the proper medical care, I think the parents should be charged with murder.
     
  2. kainjow Moderator emeritus

    kainjow

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    #2
    So there is a law that allows for healing by prayer? :confused:
     
  3. xUKHCx Administrator emeritus

    xUKHCx

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    #3
    It's in the US and it seems as if there might be

     
  4. sushi Moderator emeritus

    sushi

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    #4
    Government vs. Freedom of Religion concerning medical treatment.

    Interesting to see how this plays out.
     
  5. Cromulent macrumors 603

    Cromulent

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  6. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

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    #6
    People trying to use religion in place of science. Never seems to work, does it?
     
  7. Cromulent macrumors 603

    Cromulent

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    #7
    What makes it even worse is that they won't even learn anything from it. They'll just say it was "God's will" and not think they have done anything wrong.

    Yet another reason to be opposed to religion, but there you go. I'll not start an anti-religion flame war :).
     
  8. yg17 thread starter macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #8


    Which is exactly the reason why these two need to be locked up for the rest of their life. Maybe that will send a message to others who are going to try to do the same
     
  9. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #9
    I don't think it's the state's place to tell people that God can't heal people, as much as it's not the state's business to tell students that intelligent design is a valid alternative to Darwinian evolution.

    Alternative medicine gets a lot of money these days for research, and respected hospitals are beginning to set up alternative medicine clinics. I think most of that stuff is BS, but if people are going to support reiki and other forms of folk medicine it's hypocritical to say that religious healing is right out.

    I also detect a perception among a lot of people in the US that non-western mysticism is seen as OK or even fashionable but similar activities that happen within religions more common in the US (usually some form of Christianity) are looked down on as backwards. A double standard.

    My opinion? These people essentially killed their daughter, and I think they are completely deluded. But as for putting them in jail...it's hardly that clear cut, is it?
     
  10. iMpathetic macrumors 68030

    iMpathetic

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    #10
    Oh my God, this absolutely kills me.:(:mad::(

    My uncle died a little over a year ago from cancer. He would have had chemo, but his wife said "Let's just pray. God will save you".

    Wake up, people. A little prayer is a good thing, but modern medicine is great.
     
  11. Shotglass macrumors 65816

    Shotglass

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    #11
    yg17, you're being unreasonable. You can't charge these people with murder. Murder is killing a person after devising a plan how to do that.

    If you put them in prison for the rest of their lives, you are going to send a message. You're going to send a message to other religious people that they can't practice their religion without facing serious consequences. And good luck with that in a free country.

    You must understand that these people are not evil, they're simply deluded. They need help, not punishment.
     
  12. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    I totally agree, but to what extent does the government get to tell people how to deal with illness?

    Now because the girl was a minor I can see some restrictions being placed on what the parents are allowed to choose, but it's a slippery slope to legislate the choices parents can make when a child has a serious illness...where do we draw lines?
     
  13. Hawkeye411 macrumors 68000

    Hawkeye411

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    #13
    I read about this in the paper. It's unbelievable that this kind of thing still happens. :eek: There are some extremely radical people out there. :mad:
     
  14. Gelfin macrumors 68020

    Gelfin

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    #14
    I think I have a new example for people who don't know what "irony" means.

    Things like this are precisely why I cannot be a religious person anymore. Nobody thinks they themselves are "crazy religious people." Tom Cruise wouldn't call himself a "crazy religious person." All religion looks sane from the inside and crazy from the outside. When neighbors say "these are not bizarre people" all they mean is they do not seem obviously threatening. These people are crazy, notwithstanding the fact they were polite enough to keep it to themselves until it killed their child.

    If one does not actively seek out sanity rooted in practical reality, eventually reality catches up and one finds oneself sitting around waiting for a magical person in the sky to make one's dead child not dead anymore. Living in a fantasy world, however pleasing, is setting oneself up for tragedy. It may not be the state's place to tell people that, but no one is served by mollycoddling those who choose to flee the real world for one of their own invention.
     
  15. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #15
    Making value judgments and blanket statements about religion like that will offend sensible people, religious or otherwise.

    I understand your revulsion but it sounds pretty arrogant to belittle religion in general because of a couple of people who have taken their religion to a rather extreme extent.
     
  16. Cromulent macrumors 603

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    #16
    I agree it is not murder. But it most certainly is manslaughter. They deserve a prison sentence for incompetence and negligence.

    Your not sending that message at all. They can pray for their loved ones all they like. All we are saying is that while they pray they have to make use of all the available tools to try and help that person get better and that includes medicine and hospitals.

    No one has said they can't pray, just that prayer should never be the only thing that someone utilises in the treatment of a sick person.
     
  17. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #17
    Says who?
     
  18. Cromulent macrumors 603

    Cromulent

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    #18
    Says any sensible person with an interest in keeping people alive.

    Knowingly or unknowingly letting someone die because you refuse to take advantage of all available treatments is negligence on a huge scale and is bordering on manslaughter.
     
  19. killerrobot macrumors 68020

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    #19
    You know, maybe they stuck with prayer because it was free and it wouldn't put them into financial debt for the rest of their lives.:rolleyes:

    With that enormously satirical and callous comment (however true it may be) out of the way, this is a pretty messed up situation, and no matter how pissed I am at the parents, I've got to side with the comment that the government doesn't have the right to say that prayer/faith isn't as valid as a medical prescription.

     
  20. Lord Blackadder macrumors G5

    Lord Blackadder

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    #20
    OK, first off, because this case involves a minor I agree there are mitigating circumstances.

    But since when was the level of medical treatment given to a person determined solely by what was possible? Have you ever worked at a hospital? I have...people must make decisions and weigh their health/potential lifespan against what they will undergo by simply trying every available treatment (never mind the cost, loss of dignity/low quality of life etc) until they either recover or die. That's a totally flawed perspective IMO.

    Under your reasoning people could be forbidden from smoking, drinking, and eating unhealthily - medical science has already proven those will kill you. Heck, praying merely allows someone to die, whereas smoking actively kills you...perhaps people should be fined or imprisoned for destroying their bodies through unhealthy living?

    The issue is not blindly seeking increasingly aggressive medicine, but the fact that the girl was a minor and was not legally allowed to choose how to treat herself - she may have never even understood the danger...THAT can be seen as something the parents might be responsible for on some level. But if they don't "believe" in modern medicine how far can you force them to make use of it? How much right does society have to compel people to tow that line? Again, the fact that the girl was a minor is the only mitigating circumstance.

    But to assume that its reprehensible to not always choose every possible medical treatment when a serious illness occurs is simply not thinking things through fully.
     
  21. Cromulent macrumors 603

    Cromulent

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    #21
    Maybe all was too strong a word. I don't mind if people want to pray or use herbal remedies or whatever, just as long as they pursue standard medicine as well. That was my point.

    Nonsense. That is not my reasoning at all. Smoking, eating unhealthily etc is something which the person themselves chooses to do and therefore they take full responsibility for their actions.

    This was her parents making the decision for the girl which resulted in her death. Clear cut manslaughter by any legal definition.

    Might be? They are responsible. Parents are legally responsible for their children until they are adults.

    How is it not? The simple fact is that the girl died when she could have lived. What is not reprehensible about that?
     
  22. yg17 thread starter macrumors G5

    yg17

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    #22
    Fair enough....if not murder, then manslaughter, or at the very least, child endangerment. Their actions should not go unpunished. The government can't say that you cannot pray for your child, but they should be able to say that if your child is sick, you at least seek medical treatment. Even if the extent of the medical treatment is a doctor stating that her illness is terminal and it's best to let her die peacefully. But the fact of the matter is they did not get the proper care for their daughter, and she died from something that she should not have died from.
     
  23. GoCubsGo macrumors Nehalem

    GoCubsGo

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    #23
    How tragic. I don't believe prayer is tragic fwiw, but I believe child endangerment charges are in order. Murder seems a bit harsh. I guess that is really up to the state to decide. However, the biggest issue here is that I believe this does fall in the realm of mixing church and state....no good will ever come of that.
     
  24. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #24
    Now you're talking about forcing people to stay alive at all costs. That is simply wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin.

    How do you feel about assisted suicide?

    A lot of people simply don't believe that life is something that should be prolonged at any cost. Forcing someone into dehumanizing and expensive medical treatment is IMHO, very inhumane. Life isn't about who live the longest.

    The fact that the girl was a minor is troubling but in the end her parents made a decision about the sanctity of life.
     
  25. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #25
    No they did not, they simply failed egregiously in their duty of care.
     

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