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Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by zimv20, Feb 7, 2004.
If Kerry or Clark are the Democratic nominee, Bush will have to answer this question. It is not going away this time.
it sure didn't stick the first time around. the boston globe ran an article, here, in may 2000. didn't raise much of a stink, iirc.
anybody here have access to lexus/nexus to confirm this?
I got no way of knowing, nor does anybody else who didn't run around with Dubya in those days. To speculate, though, is always fun.
I'd say the odds are against the drugs. A helluva lot more young folks didn't do drugs than did. From what I saw, the actual spreading of drug use in the more straight world happened later in the '70s. I was around the Austin music scene all through that period from 1964 on, and got to the Haight-Ashbury in '67 and '69. I'd venture that folks not in the Hippie or folk scene weren't all that involved in the late '60s and early '70s.
(Reminds me of the first Willie Nelson July 4th picnic. It was the first time the Rednecks and the Hippies all got stoned together. Jerry Jeff, Fromholz, Willie, Tex Ritter and Roy Acuff...Eeeeee-clectic!)
The National Guard was a hideout for many of the kids of the well to do or the well connected. Some of the guys took it seriously; many did not. I'd guess Dubya took it seriously for a while; careless attitudes get dead pretty quick, in fighter jets.
Hard to get real excited about it, though. I know I'm not the only guy who, as a late teenager/early twenties was the sort I wouldn't want my son to buddy around with. I grew out of it, just like most others do. I figure that once somebody is forty or fifty, the recent ten years of behavior is what's important. Besides, Dubya's already admitted he was a boozehound and went into the old "One day at a time" regimen. Alcoholism is not something that's "curable".
Speculating and hunting goblins is de rigeur in an election year...
If Bush was one of those guys who was lucky during Vietnam and got into the Guard, then I would not have any problem with his record. I know a lot of folks who did their best to avoid going to Vietnam and I would be the last to throw stones at them. What ticks me off is the hypocrisy of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Perle, etc. - all of who avoided being where the bullets were flying and now want to quickly send other people's sons into harm's way. A little humility, at least, is in order - not showing up on flight decks dressed as a fighter pilot and most definitely not calls for others to "bring it on" when it is other people's sons and daughters who are in the line of fire. His false macho image and lack of respect for those who took the risks he would not is galling.
The drug stuff is similar. I could give a damn if he was high in 1972 or any other time as long as he isnt snorting white powder or drinking himself into a stupor in the White House - and he shows a little compassion towards others who are battling addiction. Both being something Ive seen no evidence of.
in general, i agree. but bush is going to run on his military record -- at least as commander in chief -- and i think his entire military record becomes relevant.
to send kids to war when you yourself not only got out of a war, but shirked domestic duty... i think that says a lot about someone's character. as does owning up to one's mistakes.
Those would be my thought, precisely!
Except that best indicator of future behavior is past behavior and the drugs he took appear to have taken a toll on his brain.
And just what drugs do you know that he took, Neserk? You're stating a causal relationship hitherto unknown and unalleged.
You're wrong on this one. He was an alcoholic for at least 20 years.
Based on the brain damage? Cocaine.
as mentioned, alcohol and cocaine. both were alleged during the 2000 campaign. the former was admitted to, the latter was badly dodged.
what each of us must decide is how relevent those (alleged or not) abuses are today. personally, i think he does have an addictive personality, and those drugs have been replaced w/ power. i wish he'd stayed a coke head; we'd all be better off.
If the Kerry nomination comes to pass, as seems likely now, we'll have the curious election face-off of an anti-war decorated veteran running against a pro-war draft avoider. Now, that could be interesting.
As for George Bush having a difficult time recalling whether or when he flew during the years in question, I personally find that response to be completely implausible. A pilot logs every minute he spends in front of the controls, so it's not something you forget easily. And if you did somehow manage to forget, pulling those log books off the shelf would be the perfect memory refresher. They'd also serve as proof of what he claims. Now, if I was forced to come up with a theory about what happened ...
Bush attacked those who are questioning his service, implying that they were denigrating the importance of National Guard service.
Too bad the issue isn't whether the service is important, but whether he bothered to show up for it. Nice deflection, coward.
He said the records of his service should be out there unless they were "scrubbed." That means they, like his driving record in Texas that was erased just after he was elected governor, will never be seen again.
Ok then, Mr. President, show us your pilot log books for the time in question.
I was rather disappointed when the local NBC station brought up the issue then dismissed it because he had no AWOL on his record. ARe they really that dumb? It isn't enough to say he wasn't recorded as being AWOL they need to demonstrate that there is actual evidence that he was there. As I understand it no one remembers him being there. There is no written records of him being there.
a few choice things from this yahoo article
I don't know anything about this site, but it has a copy of some of Bush's records. There is a very interesting discussion about just how Bush finished out his tour of duty (shortend by 8 months so he could attend school.)
A good discussion on the entire National Guard issue on the NewsHour on Tuesday. Transcript here: