Do Jews Have a Future in France?

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by aaronvan, Jan 10, 2015.

  1. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #1
    The same could be asked about the Jews of Denmark, the Netherlands, Germany, etc.

    http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/01/10/do-jews-have-a-future-in-france.html
     
  2. LizKat macrumors 68040

    LizKat

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    #2
    The question certainly did not first arise with 21st century radical Islamism, since not all French anti-Semites are Muslims. The Jews who remain in France today have probably second-guessed themselves for decades over a decision to stay (or to return after WWII). Similarly in other countries where there was some resistance but also compliance during Nazi occupation.

    Whether it's a more pressing question now as opposed to say 20 years ago? I don't know. It's so difficult to abandon one's homeland when there are any arguments at all for staying. Survivors of the Holocaust are of course acutely aware of the dangers of misjudging the risks.

    Europe has no corner on contemporary xenophobia or slaughter of innocents, so one could wonder where else to go if leaving France.

    Still, France has not dealt well with its post-colonial issues and it's pretty clear that any alleged melting pot is more likely one that could come to a boil, at least against the establishment if not necessarily against Jews. "It's the economy, stupid..." is relevant. Since Europe's economy has been slipping, historical bigotries have come into play again and the far right in France is behaving predictably. They are not Islamists waving guns or swords, but their rhetoric exacerbates feelings of insecurity and raises bad memories, not just for Jews but for resident North Africans, other Muslims, other immigrants.

    It's tragic when any immigrants who fled one place for another end up not feeling welcome or secure in their newer homes. It's worse when one such group bashes another and so perpetrates the ill will unto yet another generation.

    How can we manage someday to accommodate our wish to keep essentially tribal customs and cultures alive in our country of choice (or necessity) without feeling that someone else's ways have to die? Not all of our ways of being are mutually exclusive yet so often when conflict arises, everything mine becomes good and everything yours becomes bad. I wonder how we manage to give up beliefs and behaviors that deny another person's humanity and right to exist in peace on the earth. Those are the real bottom lines.
     
  3. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #3
    For some reason I keep scanning across this thread title and reading it as "Do Jews have a future in finance?"
     
  4. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 603

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    #4
    I say no. :p
     
  5. SLC Flyfishing Suspended

    SLC Flyfishing

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    #5
    Right? I thought to myself, why would anyone even ask a question with such an obvious answer...
     
  6. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #6
    lol

    ----------

    That's a fact. The Dreyfus Affair anyone?
     
  7. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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  8. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #8
    What has changed in the last forty years is that the collective guilt of the WWII, has been replaced by a distaste of the tactics by state of Israel, and the on going war against the Palestinians.

    To many people the victims of yesterday, have became the oppressors of today.


    I do know that Jews and the State of Israel are not the same, but to the person on the street, that line got blurred years ago.
     
  9. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #9
    If by "fine" you mean their children will be safe enough behind the razor wire which surrounds their schools, I wonder how long that will last.
     
  10. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #10
    It's the same with Muslims and Islamic terrorists except the the Muslims are much better at condemning the atrocities.
     
  11. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #11
    The Muslim attacks a Jewish cafe to show solidarity. Were most of those at Charles Hebdo, Jewish, Christian, or other? One thing about terrorism, it definitely falls on one side of a divide.

    Of possible interest, the bombing of King David Hotel orchestrated by a future leader of Israel illustrates the terrorist vs freedom fighter labels and it was mentioned in the Homeland Season Final where deals with the Devil are made as a matter of course when it comes to national interests. Where terrorism fails in my opinion is when you start shooting down citizens in the street indiscriminately. Then instead of building allies, you creating enemies who want to see you and your movement snuffed. Islamic State falls into this category.
     
  12. impulse462 Suspended

    impulse462

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  13. aaronvan thread starter Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #13
    I think an argument could be made that the Palestinians are freedom-fighters, in the same fashion as the Zionists who orchestrated the bombing of King David Hotel. However, most other Muslim extremists aren't fighting for rational ends, i.e. statehood, independence, overthrowing a colonial power. Most Muslim atrocities have no goal but wanton death & destruction for it's own sake, or to further their irrational goal of a world-wide caliphate.
     
  14. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #14
    Only uninformed, prejudiced people in the street. Even within Israel there are calls from Jewish people who want peace. Regrettably they seem to be in the minority these days, but let us not forget that their history of persecution, which goes back well before WWII, was no less likely to produce radical nutters than their persecution of present-day Palestinians.

    One of the things I have found about living in Europe (sort of... UK) is that the non-Jewish Europeans seem not to acknowledge how European culture shaped the Jewish people in Israel. I do not see the current the current policies of Israel as Jewish policies, but policies of people whose culture derives from Europe, including rampant racism against people of dark skin.
     
  15. Happybunny macrumors 68000

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    #15

    The biggest problem is that for the last forty years the state of Israel has been able to count on a superpower who would support it, against all calls about human rights.

    The number of times that the US has used it’s veto in the UN to support Israel is just mind boggling.

    The Israeli’s might have started out as an European styled country, but where as Europe has made over the last fifty years tremendous strides in Human rights. Look at the Human rights act, which the UK hates by the way, Israel has stood still or gone backwards.
     
  16. cyb3rdud3 macrumors 6502a

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    #16
    Witnessing todays events; seeing the Isreali, Palestine prime ministers in the same line of soladarity, and even the King of Jordan in that line. The latter is especially important I think considering the line to the Prophet Mohammed. Yes, there is a future...There is a future for all, it was wonderful to see so many people unite and stand up against the coward Muslim fundamentalist bullies. I think it has done more good than comments saying that those terrorist aren't Muslims because lets face it they are, and that isn't the issue...
     
  17. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #17
    The fact that the Jews were persecuted before 1945 doesn't give them an excuse to behave badly in the 21st century.

    One the one hand the Jewish community has integrated better than the Muslim community, but on the other hand Islamic terror is condemned by mainstream Muslim groups whereas even left wing, let alone mainstream, Jewish groups usually won't condemn Israel.
     
  18. kds1 Suspended

    kds1

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    #18
    I think they will be fine in finance.
     
  19. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #19
    You are not giving Haaretz due credit.
     
  20. Ugg macrumors 68000

    Ugg

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    #20
    As I've stated before, most Muslim atrocities can be attributed to overpopulation. Where were the radical Muslims during the late 60s? Oh, that's right they were still oppressed by western appointed leaders while their western counterparts were bombing and terrorizing the heck out of much of the western world.

    There is no way that there will be any peace in the ME until they stop breeding like rabbits. Obviously, many Muslim women don't have much in the way of rights when it comes to their own bodies and this is a problem. If the USA wants to do something constructive, then it should encourage women's rights and women's self determination.

    Millions of kids and young adults in the ME have no chance of ever having a normal life. There's no way any economy can provide jobs for a country where over 50% of its population is under the age of 25.

    Actually, this report from PEW is encouraging, but there are still millions and millions of young and frustrated 30 and younger Muslims whose lives will be meaningless.

    The highest rates of diabetes in the world are in the Arabian Peninsula so it's likely that the oldest Arabs will die younger even than many of their obese western counterparts and this should lead to a more progressive Islam.

    Blaming the current terrorism on Muslims is like blaming the post WWII baby boom and its terrorists on the Catholic Church for its opposition to birth control. If anything, birth control is probably responsible for peace in the west.
     
  21. cyb3rdud3 macrumors 6502a

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    #21
    So these terrorists of recent years and the likes that moved out there to Islamic State are home grown from what we call western countries. How does your over population theory fit in with that?
     
  22. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #22
    That's down to Western countries having done a poor job on opportunities for the poor thanks to outsourcing and western hypocrisy over Israel.
     
  23. cyb3rdud3 macrumors 6502a

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    #23
    Really? Are you now saying that Muslims are poor? Most of the guys reported in these attacks are highly educated. Whilst I can see the point about Israel, though not necessarily agree with hypocrisy, I think you'll find that it is much more related to the war the Labour Party got us involved in and not just Israel.

    Which ever way, I just can't see the comments regarding over population.
     
  24. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #24
    You're just proving the point. If you look at it objectively it's quite clear Israel has behaved far worse than China say in terms of human rights.

    Why would they attack France who very publicly opposed the Iraq war? That makes literally no sense.
     
  25. cyb3rdud3 macrumors 6502a

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    #25
    I really do not want to get drawn into the whole Israel/Palestine debate. That is just throwing rocks at each other (pun intended) where nobody knows the real history behind it and looking back isn't helping anyone. For any bad thing done by either side ten more bad things can be found on the other side and vice versa. Yet somehow you are convinced of a single version of the truth.

    With regards to the other comments, I really urge you to take a response contextual. I'm not going to list every single thing every time. From a UK perspective it makes sense, and the French attack was also nothing to do with over population.

    I think you just need to tone down your excitement a little, you are really coming across like you just want to pick a fight.
     

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