Do People Actually Want Diversity ?

Plutonius

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Marvel Comics attempted to increase diversity by modifying / creating new diverse characters.

Now they are claiming that sales are way down because their readers didn't actually want diversity.

Do you believe that media companies (movies, book, comics, etc.) should be making changes to the characters for the sake of diversity or does changing a character make it less likely that you will watch the media ?
 

TMRJIJ

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I just want people to stop caring about diversity. If the first thing that comes through your mind when you see a human being is skin color, sex, religion, etc., then you probably have a little bigotry in you.
If movies, books, or comics want to have diverse cast, then it should be treated as a regular story instead of pushing some sort of social agenda
 

ThisBougieLife

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What Drew said. I'm used to diversity; I grew up in a very diverse area where it's normal to know people from various different ethnicities and backgrounds. But that doesn't mean I want things changed for the sake of diversity. When diversity feels forced (or legitimately is forced, in this case) it tends to be viewed with scorn. Fans weren't clambering for "more diversity"; it's no surprise it wasn't received well.

Of course there are some people who are truly racist and can't stand "other colors" in their perfect little white world, but that's rare. Just because someone reacts negatively to forced diversity doesn't mean they're bigoted.
 

tunerX

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Do you mean like making Thor a woman and the new iron man a black teenage girl?

I prefer original characters staying the same with new characters actually being new.

Reboots are just a gimmick to use the same old idea and make hundreds of millions more with only some minor character and storyline tweaks.
 

citizenzen

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Marvel Comics attempted to increase diversity by modifying / creating new diverse characters.

Now they are claiming that sales are way down because their readers didn't actually want diversity.
Comic book readers ... people who crave fantasy and indulge in hero worship are a pretty select and odd population to try gauge anything by.
 
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s2mikey

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Forced diversity is more racist than actual racism. It perpetrates discrminating aganst some people to give the upper-hand to others. Its so effing contradictory that only the hard-left weenies would support it.

As for movies? Yeah, every remake or movie coming out recently has to have a gay character or couple in it. Or, they have to change male characters to female. Its like a checkbox on the movie-making form now. So stupid.
 

0098386

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I want diversity. Raised in a really diverse town (I think it's about 30% Muslim?), first love was Chinese, godfather that I was raised to call uncle was black but I didn't even think of him as not actually being related for years, family are Eastern European immigrants that fled the Great War. Maybe that's why I don't fear diversity. Meh.

Marvel seem to be using off the shelf excuses. I didn't start buying comics at all until the "lady Thor" comics, and I really liked it. Partner has also cut down on some comic subscriptions since some of the diverse ones ended. She says they were much more interesting than they have been. Shrugs are in order.
[doublepost=1491234269][/doublepost]
Forced diversity is more racist than actual racism. It perpetrates discrminating aganst some people to give the upper-hand to others. Its so effing contradictory that only the hard-left weenies would support it.

As for movies? Yeah, every remake or movie coming out recently has to have a gay character or couple in it. Or, they have to change male characters to female. Its like a checkbox on the movie-making form now. So stupid.
Do gay people not exist?
[doublepost=1491234478][/doublepost]
I just want people to stop caring about diversity. If the first thing that comes through your mind when you see a human being is skin color, sex, religion, etc., then you probably have a little bigotry in you.
If movies, books, or comics want to have diverse cast, then it should be treated as a regular story instead of pushing some sort of social agenda
Agreed. But it has to become normal and accepted first. What needs to happen is gradually bigots start to change their minds because they start feeling pushed out of normal culture because of their weird and different views. That's exactly what happened to me.

No doubt it'll eventually happen. I'm very excited for the kids in this generation growing up with more diverse representation!
 
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Mousse

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Do you mean like making Thor a woman and the new iron man a black teenage girl?

I prefer original characters staying the same with new characters actually being new.
Like what DC does with the Superman and Batman franchises? I guess it works so long as they don't go overboard. Supergirl, Superboy (well, he's Superman before was a man:D), Powergirl:), a super dog?:confused: (Krypto), Steel:rolleyes:--yeah, went overboard with Krypto and Steel, IMO. The did it right with Batman and Bat Girl.

Marvel went overboard with the Hulk thought. She Hulk and Mr Fix It (Grey Hulk) I liked. I'll give 'em a pass with Red Hulk too, but they went overboard when they created a Hulk family.:rolleyes:

A teenage girl (black, white, latino, asian, doesn't matter) Iron Man is just soOOoOoo wrong.:mad: There is already a black Iron Man: War Machine. And he's a lot more likeable than that drunkard, Stark.
 

s2mikey

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I want diversity. Raised in a really diverse town (I think it's about 30% Muslim?), first love was Chinese, godfather that I was raised to call uncle was black but I didn't even think of him as not actually being related for years, family are Eastern European immigrants that fled the Great War. Maybe that's why I don't fear diversity. Meh.

Marvel seem to be using off the shelf excuses. I didn't start buying comics at all until the "lady Thor" comics, and I really liked it. Partner has also cut down on some comic subscriptions since some of the diverse ones ended. She says they were much more interesting than they have been. Shrugs are in order.
[doublepost=1491234269][/doublepost]
Do gay people not exist?
Of course they exist but thats not what were talking about here. Its the fact that it seems to me like they are going well out of their way to make damned sure that every movie has some gay-centric thing going on. And in almost every case the gay person or couple is NOT part of the films narrative structure at all. That means they are being put in the film just "because".

Want a great example? The new Alien Covenant movie coming out has a plot the revolves around colonizing a planet. That means you need hetero-sexual couples to go on the mission because thats how you make babies. Guess what? The film has a gay couple going on the journey too. Its like WHAT? WHY the hell? How the hell? The goal is to colonize. They likely have limited space on the ship. Plus finite funds. And you're sending a gay couple? To "help" colonize a planet? Best of luck with that. You can only laugh at how stupid that is.
 
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haxrnick

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What Drew said. I'm used to diversity; I grew up in a very diverse area where it's normal to know people from various different ethnicities and backgrounds. But that doesn't mean I want things changed for the sake of diversity. When diversity feels forced (or legitimately is forced, in this case) it tends to be viewed with scorn. Fans weren't clambering for "more diversity"; it's no surprise it wasn't received well.

Of course there are some people who are truly racist and can't stand "other colors" in their perfect little white world, but that's rare. Just because someone reacts negatively to forced diversity doesn't mean they're bigoted.
I was with you until the bold.
 

ThisBougieLife

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It was just an example. If I had said "black" or "Muslim" would that have made it more palatable for you? I'm an American, the vast majority of the racism I've come across has been perpetrated by whites, so I work with what I have experienced. You won't even admit the possibility of some people who are bothered by diversity being racist? That's why I made the distinction in my comment, to indicate that the example of the comic books isn't racism. You see the word "white" and you freak out. Is that critical thinking?
 
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Mac'nCheese

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Of course they exist but thats not what were talking about here. Its the fact that it seems to me like they are going well out of their way to make damned sure that every movie has some gay-centric thing going on. And in almost every case the gay person or couple is NOT part of the films narrative structure at all. That means they are being put in the film just "because".

Want a great example? The new Alien Covenant movie coming out has a plot the revolves around colonizing a planet. That means you need hetero-sexual couples to go on the mission because thats how you make babies. Guess what? The film has a gay couple going on the journey too. Its like WHAT? WHY the hell? How the hell? The goal is to colonize. They likely have limited space on the ship. Plus finite funds. And you're sending a gay couple? To "help" colonize a planet? Best of luck with that. You can only laugh at how stupid that is.
Are you kidding? Of course they need a gay couple. Who is going to plan all the baby showers and decorate all the nurseries without them?
 

noekozz

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I'm from NYC born and raised, I'm all for diversity. People choose to make a big deal out of it if they choose to, the world isn't going to end.
 

0098386

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Of course they exist but thats not what were talking about here. Its the fact that it seems to me like they are going well out of their way to make damned sure that every movie has some gay-centric thing going on. And in almost every case the gay person or couple is NOT part of the films narrative structure at all. That means they are being put in the film just "because".

Want a great example? The new Alien Covenant movie coming out has a plot the revolves around colonizing a planet. That means you need hetero-sexual couples to go on the mission because thats how you make babies. Guess what? The film has a gay couple going on the journey too. Its like WHAT? WHY the hell? How the hell? The goal is to colonize. They likely have limited space on the ship. Plus finite funds. And you're sending a gay couple? To "help" colonize a planet? Best of luck with that. You can only laugh at how stupid that is.
It's always funny, or just telling I guess, when people suspend their disbelief for aliens that survive colonising new planets by taking part or the natives DNA, where suspended animation exists, and ns have terraformed land outside of earth, with human-like androids - that they aren't able to have babies without having sex. This is tech we've had in real life for some decades now.

Come on now. I'm opposed to posting meme images on forums, but there's a really funny one people share to embarrass racists, showing folk loving magical fiction but get turned off because their suspension of disbelief only covers what they want it to (usually about black people in historical fantasy shows).
 

tunerX

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I'm from NYC born and raised, I'm all for diversity. People choose to make a big deal out of it if they choose to, the world isn't going to end.
But do you want it in comics?

Do you ever look at a comic book like Spiderman and say to yourself... I don't want to read it unless peter parker is redrawn as a little person, Asian, gender non-binary. That's something I could really get behind and collect all of the issues.

From your response it sounds like you are indifferent to it. Marvel is trying to just replace old heroes with new "diverse" characters and people really don't care for it.
 

satcomer

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The War Machine wasn't the Iron Man for awhile Tony was to drunk then going back to rehab for alcohol! Then Rhodes went to punch drunk with the Iron Man armor so Tony had to use his original suit to beat sense back into his friend! After that Tony finally gave him the War Machine armor to help Tony sometimes!

That was the story back in the days of my Comic Book reading!
 
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A.Goldberg

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I know nothing of the comic book world, but it seems to me creating these "diverse" comics based on modifying existing characters and storylines seems problematic. You're taking a known *thing* and then changing it substantially to make it fit some arbitrary social project. People expect iron man to be a man, not a teenage girl. To me, it seems like the comic would no longer feel genuine... rather a knock off, forcing diversity.

Maybe it's just me, but if I felt like an underrepresented minority I'd want my own unique comic book series and superhero, not some knock off reprint tailored to my minority group.
 
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JayMysterio

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I was going to write a longer bit about this but to put it simply, Gabriel threw diversity under the bus like he did artists & retailers.

Marvel's approach to diversity was clearly a marketing ploy. The heart was in the right place, but their method was all about getting the attention DC comics got during their failed 52 run. With books failing, DC let some creators just try some unusual things with secondary characters, and they got great press. With Batgirl of Burnside being a fav of female readers. Those books weren't the big sellers either, but they brought new fans to stores that need new customers. Marvel never concerned with diversity before, has always had their minority characters as sidekicks, secondaries, and supports, tried to shoehorn them as major players.

Keep in mind, one thing that isn't like to be discussed is who the main base of comic purchasers & store owners is older white males. Harken back to the vitriol when Idris Elba was cast as Heimdall in Thor, and check a few comic book website forums, and you realize that no characters should be altered to a minority or woman. The blowback can be intense. Keep in mind, this is for minor characters. Start swapping out major characters whether they are selling or not, and you've raped the childhood of countless fanboys who didn't care about those characters before. Marvel should just establish new minority characters and make them major, if they fail it's because they weren't good. Keep in mind, in the last decade the only truly successful character Marvel has established is Deadpool! It isn't easy to establish any new characters regardless of race. The true intent of diversity in comics is to attract fans that didn't feel welcome to the comics world and may have been attracted by movies or tv.

Marvel's attempt to force diversity down the throats of an audience not concerned with diversity, didn't go over well. Don't buy any claims that fans did embrace the minority characters available, because the comics that were attempted ( I believe there were 2 to 3 War Machine books, all flopped more to bad writing ) didn't get any traction from those fans. On the flip side Marvel got lots of warm press for the Black Panther comic, loads of positive press for the likes of Squirrel Girl, Marvel Girl, and Spider - Gwen.

The irony of all the positive press is that day of Gabriels summit, Forbes wrote a nice glowing article about Marvel's diversity. :confused: D'oh!

Now Marvel will adopt a return to the status quo, retailers will lament that Marvel isn't doing enough to attract new readers, and everything will back the way things were. People complaining.

Keep in mind I did leave out the other effects like 'event fatigue', over shipping, constant variants, and just plain uninteresting storylines that underwhelmed, but those had no effect on slumping sales it seems
 
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Mousse

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Maybe it's just me, but if I felt like an underrepresented minority I'd want my own unique comic book series and superhero, not some knock off reprint tailored to my minority group.
So you don't like the Iron Patriot? Who? This guy...er gal.

The Iron Man knock off featuring the daughter of Yinsen Ho (the guy who saved Tony Stark's life and helped create the first Iron Man suit). She's a lesbian, Chinese-America genius who created an Iron Man suit of her own and happens to be named Toni as well. I don't know many Chinese-American lesbians.

Anyhow, the only super hero I can identify with is Squirrel Girl. We were both given the crappiest power imaginable, yet continues to overcome whatever life throws at us.:cool:
 

sunapple

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For comic books it's hard for me to form a good opinion because I'm not that much into them (do watch the movies). Basically people never like change and always complain, so it's hard to make a decision that satisfies everyone. I like that they tried, but understand that characters have some emotional value to them which would make drastic changes a hard sell. Or it's just the fact that comic books in general don't sell as well as a few decades ago due to Internet, whatever.

If every new character that was being introduced in this day and age would still be a white man, it would just not fit the culture I think, it also would become boring I guess. So a yes to diversity in comic books, but you can take it too far.

I briefly saw something from The Verge about Iron Fist, the Netflix series. It was about how wrong it was for the main character to be some white dude that got his powers from some monks from Nepal, but I believe The Verge just went too far pointing it all out like it was a crime. I seriously couldn't stand the video, joined the overwhelming dislike-club. I really enjoyed the first season without ever thinking that it could be racist. It should be okay to stick to these stereotypes just as it is a good thing to diversify. Are any of the 'affected' people even complaining?
 

noekozz

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But do you want it in comics?

Do you ever look at a comic book like Spiderman and say to yourself... I don't want to read it unless peter parker is redrawn as a little person, Asian, gender non-binary. That's something I could really get behind and collect all of the issues.

From your response it sounds like you are indifferent to it. Marvel is trying to just replace old heroes with new "diverse" characters and people really don't care for it.
And that's the key. And yes I used to collect comic books, wish I would have kept some of them tbh. I could understand them trying to appeal to a younger generation, but kids these days don't care about comic books anymore.
 

JayMysterio

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I know nothing of the comic book world, but it seems to me creating these "diverse" comics based on modifying existing characters and storylines seems problematic. You're taking a known *thing* and then changing it substantially to make it fit some arbitrary social project. People expect iron man to be a man, not a teenage girl. To me, it seems like the comic would no longer feel genuine... rather a knock off, forcing diversity.

Maybe it's just me, but if I felt like an underrepresented minority I'd want my own unique comic book series and superhero, not some knock off reprint tailored to my minority group.
That's not entirely correct. What Marvel did was try a 'cake & eat it too approach'. What Marvel did was keep the original and add the new alongside. Steve Rogers ( although he's a hydra double agent ) is still around as Captain America, while Sam Wilson is a black Captain America done with great effect. Thor is still Thor, but Jane Foster wields Mjolnir, Hawkeye is still Clint, and his protege Kate. In the case of Iron Man they tried something different. They 'killed' Tony and he placed his consciousness in an AI that helps RiRi, the new Iron Man. Doctor Doom is also Iron Man, but strangely you don't hear to much whining about that. I wonder is Doctor Doom a guy that's wo_O...

Trust me if you're an underrepresented minority, you're assuming any character is going to have for some reason 'Black' before your name, and you'll either be a potential social worker, or star athlete when things went wrong. They've since improved that trope, but the point is your expectations are low if you're a minority looking to the big two for heroes.
 

cube

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I don't need American superstars in a period Chinese movie to enjoy it, so assigning token roles in American movies just to sell it in China is also weak.

But much worse is censoring the world.