DVD Studio Pro 1.5 and Cinema Tools 1.0!!!


Mr. Anderson

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I was hoping Cinema tools would be something more like Shake, from Apple's buyout of Nothing Real. But it seems to be a much more specialized system that works at the high end film industry. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I'd like to see more development that the average pro user (like me) would be able to take advantage of. Besides, its the same price as FCP.

If anyone gets this, post a review of it, I'd be curious to hear more.
 

Beej

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Jan 6, 2002
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Buffy's bedroom
I thin your expectations are a bit high if you were hoping for something like Shake this soon. Patience my son, patience. :D
 

Ensign Paris

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Nov 4, 2001
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I certainly wasn't expecting that just so soon! I thought they might bring it out at WWDC, but its has been released at MacWorld: Chille.

Ensign
 

Mr. Anderson

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I wasn't expecting Shake, I just figured that would be the next thing for FCP. Since the buyout there really hasn't been any indication what's going to be happening. Will they incorporate Shake into FCP 3.5 or will it be an add on like Cinema Tools? Not impatient, just really, really curious.
 

mmanfrey

macrumors newbie
Mar 10, 2002
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Shake does exist for OSX

"Macs in action: Visual effects shop adopts Mac OS X
April 4 - 14:35 ET Industrial Light + Magic has spawned a new visual effects shop, Tweak Films, that is using a dozen Mac OS X workstations running applications such as Maya, Entropy, Shake, and Adobe Photoshop for developing visual effects for big-name films..."

www.macminute.com

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hollywoodreporter/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1457378

Do you think the technology in Cinema Tools is from Tremor, Nothing Real's other software?
 

Q-bert

macrumors member
Mar 20, 2002
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Cinema Tools is FilmLogic!

Cinema Tools isn't Shake or Tremor - from reading the description on the website, it's FilmLogic, which Apple bought last year. See http://www.filmlogic.com/ for details on what it does (did). That was a surprising acquisition, like Shake was, and I was wondering what they'd do with it at the time. And now we all know - a separate program as an add-on to FCP. Cool!

This makes perfect sense, people who want to edit film and HD projects have VERY high budgets and can easily afford $999 (telecine alone costs WAY more than that for even a short film), so putting film and 24P features that prosumer FCP users will never use into the main program would be like throwing money away for Apple. Having a separate program is the smartest thing to do in this case.

Interesting - now Apple has high-end film editing in Cinema Tools, AND high-end film compositing in Shake... this is really turning out to be interesting.
 

Q-bert

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Mar 20, 2002
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Originally posted by dukestreet
I wasn't expecting Shake, I just figured that would be the next thing for FCP. Since the buyout there really hasn't been any indication what's going to be happening. Will they incorporate Shake into FCP 3.5 or will it be an add on like Cinema Tools? Not impatient, just really, really curious.
Yeah, I'm curious too - but remember, it's only been about 2 months since the buyout, software NEVER works that quickly. I don't expect we'll hear anything for quite a while about Shake, honestly, but maybe they'll have some small news at NAB next week, who knows.
 

Mr. Anderson

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Well, if Filmlogic is any indication, we'll be waiting a year for iShake. But since its already available for Macs, we might see something sooner. I hope:D
 

Q-bert

macrumors member
Mar 20, 2002
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Originally posted by dukestreet
Well, if Filmlogic is any indication, we'll be waiting a year for iShake. But since its already available for Macs, we might see something sooner. I hope:D
Actually, Shake isn't available for Mac, that Hollywood Reporter article mentioned Shake but just implied that it runs on OS X, which it doesn't (only Windows, Linux, and Irix). Nothing Real did announce that they were working on a version of Shake for OS X last year at MacWorld, and it was even demoed (I heard from someone else who saw it running, I wasn't there), but then we never heard about it again after that, it just kind of disappeared. I would assume Apple will bring it back and finish it, that would be the obvious thing to do.

FilmLogic was Mac-only from what I remember, and it still took a year for Apple to morph it into this new Cinema Tools program. I don't know what they added though, maybe it has more stuff in it. So while I'm hoping for some OS X news for Shake at NAB, given how things usually work, I certainly won't be holding my breath waiting for it... ;)
 

Mr. Anderson

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Nov 1, 2001
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Originally posted by Q-bert
So while I'm hoping for some OS X news for Shake at NAB, given how things usually work, I certainly won't be holding my breath waiting for it... ;)
That's too bad, really. But I'm willing to be patient. It is great seeing Apple collecting all these great techs, hopefully they'll be able to improve on them.
 

jaredbkt

macrumors newbie
Apr 5, 2002
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End of AVID?

I wonder if this is the beginning of the end for AVID? From what I can tell from my limited experience of FCP3, and what I've read, both offer the same things. FCP has a little more, too. The main difference is price where Apple is killing AVID. Now they are going after the actual film and not just DV. Anyone else have opinion?
 

cmoney

macrumors regular
Feb 4, 2002
108
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Re: End of AVID?

Originally posted by jaredbkt
I wonder if this is the beginning of the end for AVID? From what I can tell from my limited experience of FCP3, and what I've read, both offer the same things. FCP has a little more, too. The main difference is price where Apple is killing AVID. Now they are going after the actual film and not just DV. Anyone else have opinion?
It's been my experience that Avids generally offer more features than FCP. It's just that you can buy 1 or 2 FCP stations for the cost of renting an Avid for an event. Alot of people have switched over for this reason alone.
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
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This is sweet.

IMO, Apple is doing a very good job setting itself up in the video/film post production environment. They are slowly wooing, and weening, people off of AVID proggies and onto their own. Where Adobe is still making Premiere a stand alone editing proggie (excluding other Adobe products), Apple is making FCP flexible enough to intergrate w/post houses current AVID, Pro Tools, and finishing setups (like Smoke). Apple is saying, "Look, our 10k setup can do everything you use that 100k AVID setup for and FCP can even talk to your audio sweetening and video finishing workstations." My God it's brilliant. And now they are slowly "adding on" to FCP so you can spec it out to yer needs. Apple did it's homework and it's paying off. Many trailer houses are switching from AVID MC over to FCP. And it's practically a standard for any indie/low budget effort.

But FCP is still lacking in audio mixing/editing and in media management (how logically, easily, flexibily, and quickly files can be stored, indexed, and located). It doesn't sound like much, but if you've got 100 hours of source material you can spend a long time lookin' for something if the media management blows. ;) I can't wait to see what FCP 5 loox like! Damn it's an exciting time to be in post!


Lethal
 

bonehead

macrumors regular
Feb 18, 2002
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Lost Angeles
I agree with you Lethal but you say:
Apple is saying, "Look, our 10k setup can do everything you use that 100k AVID setup for and FCP can even talk to your audio sweetening and video finishing workstations."
This suggests that the AVID can't do these things when in fact it can. People use OMFI to get audio to/from Pro Tools systems all the time. As far as talking to video finishing workstations, most people work on the AVID at a low enough resolution that you're really only bringing an EDL to the online. There is also Symphony which is an AVID product that can use your existing Media Compser project file so you can maintain all your effects settings.
That said, I can't wait for FCP to "take over", and I own an AVID. They are such an unpleasant company to deal with and have been gouging for a long time. You mentioned that FCP's media management isn't up to snuff. I messed around with FCP 1 and found that very thing, among others, lacking enough to drive me back to the familiarity of the AVID. Are there improvements in FCP 3?
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
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Originally posted by bonehead
I agree with you Lethal but you say:

This suggests that the AVID can't do these things when in fact it can. People use OMFI to get audio to/from Pro Tools systems all the time. As far as talking to video finishing workstations, most people work on the AVID at a low enough resolution that you're really only bringing an EDL to the online. There is also Symphony which is an AVID product that can use your existing Media Compser project file so you can maintain all your effects settings.
That said, I can't wait for FCP to "take over", and I own an AVID. They are such an unpleasant company to deal with and have been gouging for a long time. You mentioned that FCP's media management isn't up to snuff. I messed around with FCP 1 and found that very thing, among others, lacking enough to drive me back to the familiarity of the AVID. Are there improvements in FCP 3?

Hmmm... yeah I didnt' mean to suggest that FCP could do things that AVID couldn't I was just trying to point out that most people wouldn't assume that a "cheap" proggie like FCP could use OMFI and output AVID compatible EDLs. Usually I start ranting left and right when it comes to editing stuff so I was trying to keep it short and I guess I kept it a lil' too short ;)

OT: How popular is Symphony? I seem to hear/see more Smoke/Fire than I do Symphony.

Lethal


Lethal
 

bonehead

macrumors regular
Feb 18, 2002
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I haven't personally used a Symphony. All the video finishing for projects I've worked on for the last six years has been done with Henry (not so much any more) and Inferno and Fire. I don't think the Symphony has the flexibility and compositing power of the Discreet machines (Fire/Smoke/Flame/Inferno). An AVID selling point has been that you have a head start when using the Symphony because it will read your project file and all your effects parameters and transition information will be there. I'm sure there are other alleged benefits to using that system but I don't know what they are.

Another FCP question:

In v.1 you couldn't trust the video/audio sync on your computer monitor. Apple said you needed to view on an NTSC monitor which meant going firewire to a DV clamshell with audio/video outs. Is this still necessary in v. 3?
 

LethalWolfe

macrumors G3
Jan 11, 2002
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Los Angeles
Hmmm I never used 1, only 2 and, soon to be, 3. I haven't heard of the sync issue before so I'm assuming it got fixed by 2 or the upgrade they did to one. Well, on Monday FedEx should drop off my new G4, I'll have FCP fired-up shortly there after, and I'll report back. :)


Lethal
 

iGav

macrumors G3
Mar 9, 2002
9,025
1
I'd love

to see Discreet get into some hardcore mutha action on the mac... I use Combustion alot and it's wild..... so very, very good for a software based product!!

I can't wait to see what Apple has up it's sleeve with regards to products aquired from Nothing Real......:D
 

Buggy

macrumors regular
Oct 14, 2001
133
0
Canada
Audio sync is still a problem in FCP3

2-pop has some excellent discussions regarding these problems. THere seem to be as many fixes as problems.

Still FCP is great.

I am not in the AVID crowd. I got into video production just as FCP1 was realeased. I had to make some hard descisions to go with a brand new piece of untested software or go with the tried and true Adobe.

I am so glad I made the FCP decision. Now it is a no brainer.

I don't have much use for cinema tools so I am glad that it is an add on that I won't have to pay extra for. But I really like the way Apple is going with video.

No if they could just give us back the mic jack and fix the audio controls in OSX....