Eating meat helped early humans reproduce

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by KnightWRX, Apr 22, 2012.

  1. KnightWRX macrumors Pentium

    KnightWRX

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    #1
  2. MorphingDragon, Apr 22, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012

    MorphingDragon macrumors 603

    MorphingDragon

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    #2
    Damn those Swedes, ruin everyone's fun. I've never really understood the argument Vegans have for not eating meat (Apart for Spiritual reasons). Quite honestly most Vegans I know look as white as a ghost.

    Except I currently envy any person eating real food ATM. Haven't had any real meat or fruit/veges in the last week. Been living on Miso Soup and a Food Package from the Sallies. :(
     
  3. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #3
    From the linked article ...

    Today human population and the resources to maintain it are vastly greater than they were during our species developing stages.

    That would be a reason to choose veganism/vegetarianism.

    Because the conditions now make it a viable and healthy alternative.
     
  4. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #4
    Eating meat helped early humans reproduce

    Part of god's plan, for he created animals for Man to use. It's in his curriculum vitae, somewhere.

    Except for that one, oh and that one, oh yes can't forget that one either.

    :rolleyes:
     
  5. KnightWRX thread starter macrumors Pentium

    KnightWRX

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    #5
    You're misreading the article. When talking about limited ressources and small population, they mean that the meat eating population could reproduce faster, thus adding more "human ressources" to the tribe. It's not about food being limited, it's about the population being limited.

    Veganism is not healthier because we now suffer from over-population.

    Don't misunderstand the article if you're going to make comments like this.
     
  6. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    My apologies for making a comment.

    I'll find another thread where comments are welcome.
     
  7. Starfighter macrumors 6502a

    Starfighter

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    I can't really see what this tells us that is relevant today. In which argument or discussion is it useful?
     
  8. NickZac macrumors 68000

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    #8
    I don't think there is any question as to our omnivorous roots. Our teeth and bone findings both show this. The lack of Omega 3 production that most herbivores have and omnivores and carnivores lack shows this as well. Fossil findings also show that man has historically been a scavenger, not the hunter as often romanticized. I also don't think there is any question that meat has been needed to survive well until recent time. Even now, there are some health concerns (B-12, D, Omega 3's EPA and DHA) for those who do not consume meat, although it is unquestionable that many people who do not consume meat live very healthy, as modern food production permits this. That was said in regards to a vegetarian diet, which carries many health benefits. The exception here is the vegan diet, in which there are still numerous health concerns.
     
  9. KnightWRX thread starter macrumors Pentium

    KnightWRX

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    #9
    Misreading is in your blood or something ? I'm saying to understand before commenting, to prevent from making comments that have no link to the article and derailing the thread into something it's not.

    Comments are welcome, albeit informed and on-topic comments. Quoting the article out of context or not taking into account the context of the words is not welcome, that's just spin and it's frankly not going to lead to meaningful conversation.
     
  10. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    #10
    I've explained my reasons for being on the vegan end of vegetarian on these forums many times before so apologies to all who have to read it again. It's because I believe the best way for me to personally to reduce animal suffering is to abstain from eating meat/utilising textiles from animals. Modern factory animal farming practices are in my opinion abhorrent and something that demonstrably causes pain and suffering for animals. Abstaining goes part of the way to reducing this. I haven't eaten meat in over a decade and would have spared the suffering of countless factory farmed animals in that time. Thankfully the move away from factory farming is a shift much of society is making as well. Likewise making choices about where my food comes from can benefit animals for instance not buying pulses/grains/rice from places where the environment is being destroyed/water is scarce. It's impossible not to have an impact on animals but one can make choices to reduce that suffering.

    There is no reason for vegans to be less healthy than eat eaters. They just have to work on a balanced diet. Something the vast majority of meat eaters struggle with as well if we're honest i.e. the obestity epidemic in western countries.
     
  11. CalBoy macrumors 604

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    #11
    I agree with the goal of reducing animal suffering, but if that is the goal, wouldn't it make more sense to be a meat eater who only buys responsible meat? That would adjust the market towards responsible producers. By not being in the meat market at all, you don't have the ability to shift the market towards better producers. Instead, you've made your voice less powerful because most of us who enjoy meat aren't going to give it up, but we could be convinced to pay extra for responsible meat.

    From what I see people getting their excess calories from these days, it isn't meat that's the problem, it's cheap sugar and refined carbs. Those are things vegans and vegetarians both indulge in. Vegans and vegetarians have to work harder to balance their diets since they eliminate some of the best sources of protein from their diets. Sure it's possible for people to have healthy diets as vegans, but is it probable given how bad the public already manages its diet?

    If we're trying to get people to eat better, getting people off sugar is probably a much better place to start.
     
  12. (marc) macrumors 6502a

    (marc)

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    #12
    Really, KnightWRX? :rolleyes:

    It is not useful. KnightWRX probably missed the last sentence of the article:
     
  13. KnightWRX thread starter macrumors Pentium

    KnightWRX

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    #13
    I didn't. It's just something she threw in there that has no basis in the study itself, a sort of Political correctness comment so as not to offend anyone.

    The study itself shows a correlation between babies being faster to wean off when breast fed from mothers who eat meat. This was a clear advantage to early societies where faster birthing resulted in population increases.

    The benefits today would obviously be children that physically mature faster. Not something to ignore IMO.
     
  14. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    I agree with responsible meat (what a loaded marketing term) being better than factory farming. Likewise hunting perhaps being better. However I disagree with your claim of it being better to be in the market to influence it. By abstaining from the market i am influencing it the way i see best - reducing demand. When animals are a commodity their welfare will always be traded off against profit.


    Talk about drawing unfounded conclusions from the article. This is amazing.
     
  15. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #15
    I understand that, but my point is more that you'd have a lot more success in weakening factory farming if you got more people to abstain from it. Veganism and vegetarianism are at their highest popularity in the West right now, and even so they are virtually immaterial to the meat market. Factory farms aren't suffering because a super minority is abstaining. You've got to find a way to engage the 97-99% of the population that does eat meat. Until you do, you might as well be screaming at a brick wall because you don't have the numbers to matter.

    Given that you need to convince more people to abstain from factory farming, you have to find a way to make that more palatable for them. You aren't going to convince me, for instance, to give up my steak, pork, chicken, turkey, tuna, calamari, ceviche, and about 999 other ridiculously tasty foods. Find me an alternative, and I'll do my best to not increase suffering in the world.

    If your method is to reduce demand by being within the margins of error for meat producers, then your cause is going to be doomed because you're in statistical oblivion.
     
  16. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #16
    I try to buy free range grass fed beef as much as possible, I grew up in a farm area where people took care of their livestock properly, people had respect/pride for/in their livestock because it was their livelihood. After watching Food Inc awhile ago and seeing how these huge corporations operate it makes me sick to my stomach and I am sure the actual livestock owners would feel the same. The animal suffering is obviously bad, but there is no pride in the work and who wants to eat meat off of an animal that has been standing in its own **** most of its life and doesn't eat a proper diet? Kind of disgusting and one of the reasons I don't eat fast food anymore also.
     
  17. KnightWRX thread starter macrumors Pentium

    KnightWRX

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    Uh ? Those are exactly the conclusions the study came to... :confused:

    This has nothing to do with Veganism or free range markets or ethical meats like you guys are derailing the thread into.
     
  18. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #18
    No, the study concluded that our ancestors saw that benefit because they had a very different set of circumstances, especially related to food scarcity and labor scarcity.

    This thread, by your own first post, has been linked to our contemporary diets. Of course we're going to discuss that, since you opened the door yourself.
     
  19. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #19
    The following quote you chose for the OP would suggest otherwise.

     
  20. MorphingDragon, Apr 22, 2012
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2012

    MorphingDragon macrumors 603

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    Oh certainly, I have Vegan friends/acquaintances who do eat healthily. However at least in New Zealand, veganism has turned into a bit of a fad and not a lot of thought is being put into the diet. What seems to happen when somebody wants to "go vegan" is that they just start eating more of the food they used to eat with an omnivorous diet instead of a fundamental diet change. They hear about all the benefits in mainstream media, but the mainstream media conveniently leaves out the lifestyle change required.
     
  21. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #21
    What lifestyle change is required?
     
  22. mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

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    #22
    In honor of our meat eating ancestors Im sitting down for a nice juicy burger.
     
  23. KnightWRX thread starter macrumors Pentium

    KnightWRX

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    #23
    It has nothing to do with the motivations behind veganism. Better ? This is strictly about newborns, weaning and population growth.
     
  24. NickZac macrumors 68000

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    #24
    If we want to look at ideal diet, we need to consider this...

    1) the quantities of meat relative to the quantities of vegetable matter consumed has historically been predominantly vegetable based.
    2) some meats are the only human-consumable foods that have nutrients in them that the body cannot produce naturally.
    3) today's level of meat intake is far less healthy than not eating any meat at all.
    4) refined carbohydrates are not healthy.
    5) soy has a questionable safety profile and many people with certain conditions should avoid it outright.
    6) most meats we eat are inherently unhealthy due to antibiotics, factory farming, and the actual 'cuts' that we eat.
    7) common practices in raising meat-animals have made the safety profile of many meats questionable...additionally, common feeding practices have made meat sources from factory farming have less nutrients.
    8) milk is not a food that we were designed to consume past infancy (vegetables are actually a better source of calcium).

    The healthiest diets are not that hard to map out. For most people without chronic diseases, the base of their diet should be vegetable matter. The ideal vegetables are dark, leafy greens. Some of these even provide protein in themselves, and these are probably the single most important part of diet. While some supplements provide the same nutrients that leafy greens do, our bodies to not process them as well as from the real source. At least two servings per meal. If you can go organic, all the better. Don't boil your vegetables if you like them cooked; instead, steam them as that preserves the nutritional value. With that meal, a small amount of turkey/chicken breast, bison, ostrich, or other low-fat meat. Some cuts from pig and cow may be okay, but the majority of beef and pork sold in stores should be avoided outright. Fish is good as well as the fats found in fish are beneficial. Servings for the meat should be small...as in around 5-7 ounces max. No matter what meat you get, I strongly advise buying "free range" given it is not only more ethical, but it is far more safe and it is even healthier due to better stock. Whole grains as opposed to refined and enriched grains are preferred, and long grain, brown, yellow and other rice can be an inexpensive and healthy side dish. Obviously, fruit intake should not be overlooked either, especially the berries which contain a variety of nutrients not found in high quantity in any other foods we eat (blueberries, blackberries, and strawberries especially). Small servings of nuts can also bolster any healthy dietary regiment, as can dark chocolate. And water...that is a huge one. If you don't like water, drink Propel or Crystal Light Pure, or something similar instead of soda or sugar drinks. Heavily processed foods with tons of salt, saturated fat, refined/enriched carbs, simple sugars, sugar drinks, canned meat, etc. should be minimized. Fast food such as McDonalds should be avoided outright, if possible (opt for Chipolte instead...their food is better tasting, healthier, and ethical http://www.chipotle.com/en-US/fwi/fwi.aspx ).

    As far as the issues with today's children, the biggest issue is not really meat-related, but vegetable-related. That is, they are not eating them and instead eating unhealthy, simple carbs. Most nutritional deficiencies found in today's school children are usually due to insufficient greens consumption. The harm caused by these deficiencies is both in the immediate and long term. Additionally, meat consumed is 'junk-meat' (fattiest cuts) and it is consumed heavily. That in itself, can and does lead to health issues and between the carbs and meat we see younger children developing diabetes at an alarming rate. And so while I am an avid supporter of reducing the types and quantities of meat we consume but continue to embrace an omnivorous diet, I am even more avid in my support of green vegetable consumption.
     
  25. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    #25
    I love how you try to define and restrict what is and is not talked about.

    Do you have control issues?
     

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