England's Doctors Walk Out of Emergency Wards in First Ever All-Out Strike

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Populism, Apr 26, 2016.

  1. Populism macrumors regular

    Populism

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    #1
    https://news.vice.com/article/engla...=vicenewstwitter&utm_medium=vicenewstwitteruk

    Curious whether any English PRSI'ers have any insight.

     
  2. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #2
    Government is pretty stupid. They had a way out of a pilot scheme.
     
  3. jkcerda macrumors 6502

    jkcerda

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  4. steve knight Suspended

    steve knight

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    #4
    and in the us doctors can work 80 hour weeks 36 hour shifts. this seems to try to point our how bad it is with government run health care but compared to the US it looks like nothing.
     
  5. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #5
    Not English, but I do live in Scotland and a member of my family is 2 years away from being a junior doctor. Basically it boils down to this: the Conservatives in the UK do not care about anything but cutting taxes, for their appeal is to short-sighted selfishness among the voters. The Tories also claim to make public services more 'efficient', but really they starve those services of funds, thereby creating a culture of voter complaints about them, then sell them off to their top 0.1% buddies so the greedy pigs can get even more filthy rich. In this case, the Tories want the NHS to run 24/7, which is all very fine until you realise they are adding no extra money or personnel to the system to do this, and that they have not been negotiating in good faith with the doctors about the change in working conditions that would be required. Indeed, the Tories stopped negotiating and took a 'take it or leave it' attitude. It seems pretty clear that the doctors are telling the government what it can do with its contract. You know the government is wrong when 98% of junior doctors vote to strike, and 76% of them participate in that strike.

    Fortunately so far here in Scotland sanity has prevailed, and the new contract is not being shoved down the junior doctors' throats. Instead, the Scottish government is negotiating in a very pragmatic way. In fact, I would not be at all surprised if Scotland picked up a few former junior doctors from England, as will Ireland, Canada, Australia, and New Zealand if the Tories continue with this.
     
  6. Populism thread starter macrumors regular

    Populism

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    #6
    Leave it to Steve Knight to derail a thread - in Post No. 3, no less - and make it another epistle on Why Steve Knight Hates The US.

    Quality response, SK. Outstanding quality.
     
  7. A.Goldberg macrumors 68000

    A.Goldberg

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    #7
    Wow. That's pretty ballsy for doctors (or residents as we'd call them here I believe) to walk out of the doors. Despite the "contingency plan" putting off 100,000 appointments and 13,000 operations undoubtably will have negative consequences for the healthcare of their patients.

    Residents lives are hell. My GF is in her residency and works 12+ hours a day, generally 10-12 days on, 1 day off. And work is not exactly stress free. I just (within the past 48hrs) completed a post-grad pharmacy specialty residency which was pretty rigorous, especially in the beginning.

    I can't comment on the working conditions in England, but in the US residents are overworked and underpaid. It's really a hospitals way of hiring cheap but skilled labor. I'm just a PharmD but my salary literally will more than double from my residency to after completing it. Doctors see an even bigger jump.
     
  8. Peterkro, Apr 27, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2016

    Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #8
    Cg-FBN8WkAg6X20.jpg Hunt is a complete prat.Junior doctors have huge public support plus the support of nearly all consultants,this is a no win for the tories.Worse case scenario junior doctors resign en masse.
    The irony of course is that because consultants will be covering the two days (and it is only days not nights) treatment for A&E and for other patients in real trouble will be better than when the juniors are working.The putting off of non urgent operations and appointments is neither here nor there in the grand scheme of things,in spite of the tories claims that bodies will be piling up in the streets.

    E2a: Meanwhile in NZ they are looking for a rural GP the salary is $400,000 (nearly £200,000),three months holiday,50% share in the practice and no night or weekend work.These rural practices are normally staffed by overseas doctors and this case is by no means the only vacancy like this:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/23/400000-year-job-new-zealand-three-months-holiday

    E2a2: pic of Consultants supporting junior doctors.
     
  9. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #9
    They are making demands for a better funded NHS. In the long run, it'll be better for their patients.

    Other than that, nothing to add to what @VulchR said.
     
  10. FieldingMellish Suspended

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    #10
    They need a Ronald Reagan to say, "you're not showing up for work? Well, then stay out of work." And then go about a major hiring process.
     
  11. Ironduke Suspended

    Ironduke

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    #11
    lol at you.
     
  12. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #12
    The Hippocratic oath applies to emergency care, A&E is still open staffed by senior doctors, who overwhelmingly support the junior doctors strike.
     
  13. VulchR, Apr 27, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2016

    VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #13
    There is literally nobody else qualified in the UK to hire. Indeed there is talk about mass resignation junior doctors, followed by their joining the profit-making services that provide temporary staff for the NHS. The costs of that to the UK society would be astronomical - rather like the healthcare costs in the US.

    But, hey, if you are qualified, knock yourself out and join the NHS.

    --- Post Merged, Apr 27, 2016 ---
    There is nothing in the oath about working more for less pay, and specifically the 'do no harm' that people believe is part of the oath rather precludes the doctors working past the point of safety for their patients. Part of this is that the junior doctors feel so overworked that they fear they will make mistakes due to exhaustion and sleep deprivation.

    That was the point of Steve Knight above, who alluded to the working conditions of US doctors as being even more extreme in regard to the work schedule. As a neuroscientist and psychologist I can tell you that it is impossible to sustain high levels accuracy and efficiency under the typical US schedule and the proposed UK schedule. It's called 'vigilance decrement', and it has been well documented in a variety of contexts since the 1940's.
     
  14. oscillatewildly macrumors 68000

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    #14
    The doctors would try to make it work?

    Cheers,
    OW
     
  15. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #15
    They are preventing future harm, and more senior doctors are working some of their shifts so the emergencies can be handled. But doctors or nurses who work too many hours are at a higher risk of making errors that will harm the patients. Stopping these kinds of stupid cost cutting schemes before they get out of hand and start hurting patient outcomes.
    http://www.bcmj.org/article/impact-...hysician-and-patient-safety-it-time-wake-call
     
  16. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #16
    I suppose the Tories could hand out amphetamines to doctors like the armed forces did for soldiers in WWII. :cool:
     
  17. Limey77 macrumors regular

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    #17
    While I wholeheartedly support the doctors, they do need to be careful. At the moment they have public support, however, the longer strikes go on and as soon a one death can be attributed to the strike then they will very quickly lose support.

    Now if they could get the 76% of doctors who went on strike to all resign - then they'd be in a very powerful position.
     
  18. mrkramer macrumors 603

    mrkramer

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    #18
    Agreed, the smart thing to do would be to have a short strike, and then if they don't get what they want periodically repeat with more short strikes. That way the procedures that are being disrupted by other doctors filling in on emergencies can still go ahead and they don't lose public support.
     
  19. Limey77 macrumors regular

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    #19
    My wife had a hospital appointment yesterday, and while she got a consultant instead of a junior doctor (great result), she said there were four or five pensioners who were very unstable on their feet whose appointments had been cancelled but they never received notification. So thes 80+ year olds had left home, taken a taxi or bus to get to Charing Cross and simply had to go back home and then have to come back at a later date.
     
  20. Renzatic Suspended

    Renzatic

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    #20
    To boil it down to its bare basics, and throw around some blanket terms, conservatives want to support austerity funding standards, which leads to skeleton crews working around the clocks with very little compensation. Liberals are all about dumping as much money as they can on all social programs, which leads to an overspending on pointless thing.

    While you could say that one is better than the other depending on your political leanings, the truth is, neither of these scenarios are preferable. It isn't an issue of more or less, it's an issue of good management.
     
  21. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #21
    Not quite, conservatives want to make the NHS look bad in order to continue a sell off to private companies. Same goes for education, and I believe even other public services would have gone that way (Policing being another I'd be particularly worried about).

    Enforcing new contracts and austerity undeniably drives down standards, giving excuses for the Tories to justify sell of to private companies.

    If we're honest about it now though, the NHS by all definitions is essentially in the hands of private companies already.
     
  22. AFEPPL macrumors 68030

    AFEPPL

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    #22
    It's the unions causing problems yet again..
    We saw it with the miners - result no more mines as it simply wasn't economically viable
    We see it with steel - they have now priced themselves out of a job as no one will buy the steel

    And now the doctors don't want to give up their massive overtime kicks for working additional shifts even though they are getting a large basic increase of 19%. Its also argued more people are dying over the weekend when cover is not as good, so the shift pattern changes is meant to address that. All that will happen is the privatisation of the NHS, which in itself is probably a good thing as this monster will consume any amount of cash any government throws at it. Funding right now is more than its every been in history. Root of this problem is the previous government and its PFI crap that has now stripped NHS of huge amounts of money for the next 25years..
     
  23. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #23
    The more people dying at weekends bollocks is wrong first off their definition of the weekend is Friday to Monday inclusive,second the day with the most deaths is actually Wednesday.
     
  24. sim667 macrumors 65816

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    #24
    More hours for less pay is nothing to do with the previous government, nor is it a fair contract.

    Lets no forget these changes are being implemented by a man who wrote a book about dissolving the NHS. He has one final goal, which is to privatise it entirely.
     

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