Equality of Opportunity vs Equality of Outcome

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by the8thark, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. the8thark macrumors 68040

    the8thark

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    #1
    Ex British PM David Cameron a few years back gave an amazing speech at the Conservative party national convention. There is a specific quote from the speech which I would like to talk about.

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    The quote explains the differences between equality of opportunity and equality of outcome.
    Which do you feel is better to aim for?

    Also I will comment later on with my opinions on the subject as I don't want my opnion biasing the debate here on this . . . well at least not initially.
     
  2. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #2
    I think Mr Cameron does care about equality of opportunity to at least some extent as he gave more money to inner city schools. However many conservatives only care about keeping the establishment rich.
     
  3. lowendlinux Contributor

    lowendlinux

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    #3
    I don't think anyone would disagree with that idea
     
  4. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #4
    The problem is that neither opportunities or outcomes are equal, so the quote is rhetorical nonsense. And DC was a fool who got the UK into the Brexit mess because he was trying to shore up his support within his own party.
     
  5. Mac'nCheese Suspended

    Mac'nCheese

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    #5
    Not sure why you would think your opinion would bias the debate or why the quote is in a spoiler tag was the first two thoughts I had. The third was I can’t see how any one could reasonably disagree with this.
     
  6. Raid macrumors 68020

    Raid

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    #6
    I think too that equality of opportunity is the best to shoot for, but also provide social programs for those where misfortune and other issues means the outcome is living below poverty levels. A lot of the 'right rhetoric' is about how 'the left' wants everyone at the same level. Save for a few true communist/socialist extremes that is far from the truth. The opportunities should be available to all as well as the protections. However what is equal is not necessarily fair, and vice versa. If we had this all figured out there wouldn't be as much partisanship in politics.
     
  7. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #7
    The DNC had one of those "socialist extremes" finish second and that's after they rigged the system to torpedo him. I have no idea how some would think the "Left" is pushing for everyone to be at the same. ;) They're the ones pounding it in everyone's head that if so and so has XYZ, they didn't earn it and because you don't have one too that translates into inequality.
     
  8. eatrains macrumors 6502

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    #8
    I like how the Right thinks that making sure your fellow Americans have access to healthcare so they don't die in the streets is an extremist position. Christian values, indeed.
     
  9. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #9
    I have no problem with reforming healthcare, it's the "free college tuition for everyone" and the rest of the **** I have a problem with.
     
  10. decafjava macrumors 68040

    decafjava

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    #10
    What's wrong with free college on the condition say, of a sufficiently high GPA and consistent performance-you fail you're out. Fail twice and you have to pay it back - or something like that unless you agree to enrol in vocational school.
     
  11. BoxerGT2.5, Jun 18, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2018

    BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #11
    If you want "free college tuition" for everyone you need to revamp the entire educational system from Kindergarten on up and institute a track system as seen in European countries. I also think you'd need to select based om ones desired major who should go or stay. I had a friend major in English only to not want to be a teacher. Absolutely useless degree and the guy is a manager at Dick's Sporting Goods. I also had a buddy of mine who was color blind like no one you've ever seen major in Graphic Design. That was a real head scratcher as well.

    Someone will cry racism in such a system as you describe, there won't be enough "opportunity" for everyone. I also think creating another entitlement that no politician will ever have the backbone to reform is about the last thing we need. We aren't going to touch SS or Medicare until either or both flat out cave in. Someone's going to run on the platform that they'll send everyone to Harvard (even the booger eaters and the kids licking their palms, while his opponent wants everyone's kids to be dumb as a brick.
     
  12. sean000 macrumors 68000

    sean000

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    #12
    I really don't think you have a good understanding of Bernie Sanders' platform.
     
  13. BeeGood macrumors 68000

    BeeGood

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    #13
    Nothing is wrong with that. In fact, several states already have programs in place like this and it works fine for most of them.

    But they’re all merit based, which isn’t what the guy you’re quoting was referring to. Some people want free college money for everyone with a pulse.
     
  14. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #14
    Does he want to guarantee everyone a job and an income?
     
  15. sean000 macrumors 68000

    sean000

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    #15
    Agreed. I'm tired of the Right putting words into the mouths of the Left. A lot of people talk about Socialism and Capitalism as if there is nothing in between. We don't even have a totally free market capitalist system in the United States to begin with. We are already somewhere on the spectrum between complete socialism and unfettered free market capitalism. Those of us on the Left think we are leaning too far in favor of wealthy capitalists. Those on the right think we are leaning too far towards socialism.

    I'm farther to the left than most people I know, but I have no desire to see capitalism ended or to have all wealth redistributed equally. I believe in equality of opportunity over equality of outcome as well, but the problem is many of us will never agree on what equality of opportunity looks like. Overall the last 4 decades have shifted things to the right. Deregulation, tax breaks for the wealthy and for corporations, regressive taxes that put more of a burden on the poor and middle class, healthcare, housing and education costs have risen at rates far beyond wages, Even regulations that attempted to prevent another great recession are being dismantled as if we learned absolutely nothing... because most of the people who were financially devastated were the poor and middle class. While many investments tanked over the short term, wealthy investors recovered just fine. Meanwhile programs that primarily help the poor and middle class have been de-funded to crippling degrees, and the most financially vulnerable have little protection as consumers. Add to this a mix of racism, misogyny, homophobia, and other forms of bigotry. I'm not sure where to draw the lines for trying to provide equal opportunities, but i know we are very far from those lines in America. I know that there are those who believe we can't force equality in a world that has never been fair, but I think we can do better than to give up just because a small percentage make it from rags to riches every now and then.

    Another way to look at it is through the lens of history. Whenever and wherever there have been enormous gaps between rich and poor, bad things eventually happen that nobody escapes from. If you are wealthy, the best way to ensure the continuing wealth and safety of your family and country is to support equal opportunity initiatives that alleviate poverty and grow the middle class. Not everyone can be wealthy, and that should not be the goal. The middle class is the goal. That's the original American Dream.
     
  16. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #16

    Of course. Let me guess - you've passed the age of traditional formal education, but you see your old age coming so suddenly medicine is a priority.
     
  17. BoxerGT2.5 macrumors 68000

    BoxerGT2.5

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    #17
    I work in Medicine, so I see how ****ed up our healthcare system is. I see what Insurance and drug companies have done and if we didn't need the latter I'd get rid of both of them.
     
  18. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #18
    On this we are agreed. The US system is out of control.
     
  19. the8thark, Jun 21, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2018

    the8thark thread starter macrumors 68040

    the8thark

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    #19
    Mr Cameron is no longer Prime Minister so what he thinks for the most pert only matters if the current Conservative Party remembers this and keeps it at the front of all policy decisions. Is that happening still today? That's quite debatable and that's the issue. The Conservative Party cares more than just about the rich as you incorrectly claim. However they are straying from this important message which is very worrying. Not a good sign at all for the party.

    A lot of people actually disagree with idea. Socalist ideals disagree with idea. I'll take one example to illustrate this.

    Large corporation bailouts by the US government. They are designed to ensure all large US corporations do not fail regardless of how good or poorly that particular large US corporation is performing at the time.
    This is equality of outcome.

    What should be happening is the US government should be reforming the tax system (which has recently happened) and improve business confidence (which is slowly happening now) so all large US corporations have the opportunity to succeed if they put the effort in and make the necessary tough businesses decisions.
    This is equality of opportunity.

    There is many other examples where individuals, and governments don't agree with David Cameron's idea of equality of opportunity.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 21, 2018 ---
    I actually agree with most of this. In the UK and Australia what you are saying is actually happening. The poor in these two countries to have a proper national healthare system to use, do have post pay university education to access, decent unemployment services to access that try to help them find work.

    The whole point here is more than just having everyone at the same level. It's about being given the opportunity to earn somethnig as opposed to just being given that same something. The protections you speak of are totally needed, I agree with you there as they allow the poorest and lowest in our societies to have the opportunity to rise above their current state and succeed in life. That's what is needed to give them the opportunities.

    The protections are not about creating equality. They are about making sure the lowest in our society are cared for so they too have the opoortunities to succeed.

    The example I gave above about US corporations is a good one. We had a similar issue here with QANTAS, one of our national airlines. The left side of government here in Australia wanted to give QANTAS billions in handouts to save them from bankruptcy. The right side which was in government at the time told QANTAS, no. No bailout money for you.
    How did QANTAS respond? They made the tough business decisions and a couple of years later they out of the red and doing really well as a business again.

    But we need to remember this is good for a business but for the poor in Australia and the UK we do have those protections for our poor as they are what is needed to give them the opportunities to succeed. Each case needs to be treated differently.
     
  20. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #20
    What policies have the conservatives introduced to help ordinary people?
     
  21. the8thark thread starter macrumors 68040

    the8thark

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    #21
    Quite a lot actually. But I'll just quote 3 of them. You can easily research up the rest.

    Guarantee the rights of EU citizens living in the UK – as long as the EU guarantees the rights of British people living in the EU. So our small businesses have the workers they need, and our citizens abroad have the protection they need.

    No hard border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland – while keeping the Common Travel Area. So we can maintain the peace while creating more jobs and a stronger economy for Northern Ireland.
    Honour our financial commitments to the EU – but no more. So from 29 March 2019, when we formally leave the EU, we can spend that money on our NHS and public services.

    All to do with brexit but they do help every citizen equally.
     
  22. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #22
    So I think it is fundamental that we as a Society make personal responsibility and initiative something that all people strive towards. I also think that Societies are inherently unequal, and that some mechanism(s) should allow people an equal starting point. Towards those ends, it's patently ridiculous how little attention the US pays to it's Educational System - and relatedly, how College has become a debt-albatross.
     
  23. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #23
    This is a pretty weak argument. If the best you can do is say that the Conservative party doesn’t want to flush the country down the toilet on Brexit, something no one outside the Conservative party cares about, that isn’t great.
     

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22 June 18, 2018