Ethics/Morality Talk- Care to Indulge? :)

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Huntn, Jul 7, 2019.

  1. Huntn macrumors demi-god

    Huntn

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    #1
    I’m hoping to keep this out of PRSI, but if it takes off, am resigned at some point it will end up there.

    eth·ics
    /ˈeTHiks/
    noun
    1. 1.
      moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity.

    In my local grocery store in the parking lot, there is a series of 3 Stop Signs at each entrance with a crosswalk into the grocery. Usually when I drive by in the parking lot, I do not stop at each sign, but roll though at under 10mph, but if I see someone exiting the store or approaching the crosswalk, I stop to allow them to pass.

    Would you say that my behavior is reasonable and ethical or not? There maybe a separate evaluation as to the legality of this behavior. As far as I know, traffic signs such as these are not legally enforced, but I imagine if you hit someone in a crosswalk, disobedience of the sign would be held against you.
     
  2. Anarchy99 macrumors 6502a

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    #2
    well they are not legally enforceable like a real street sign, its on private property essentially its a private road.
    so in that regard its not immoral to ignore them, but the shop can prevent you from going there if they see your not doing what they wish.

    depending on how you view private property rights (in this case the shop owners) would determine whether you found ignoring it unethical.

    personally I would deem ignoring them as ethical because im violating no law doing so and i haven't personally agree'd with the shop owner to abide by their rules.
    had I agreed to them not to then if i ignored them it would fall under unethical.

    in the case of one of my local grocery stores I know the owner so despite not coming to a agreement i would honour the implied request out of respect for the family and if i fail to do so would find it unethical
     
  3. SandboxGeneral Moderator emeritus

    SandboxGeneral

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    #3
    I do the same thing at stores with those signs in their parking lots, though I'm probably going about 5mph and covering the brake, too.

    I feel that its reasonable to that so long as the driver isn't distracted and prepared to stop giving pedestrians a safe chance to cross.
     
  4. a2jack macrumors 6502

    a2jack

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    #4
    Can't be judged from example. If it is a main entrance or exit from the store a full stop is indicated, law or no law.

    Ethics are something I have pondered my whole life, and have been dismayed to find them totally absent in big business and among our leaders.

    On a personal level, we can try our best to treat ordinary people and animals right.

    Not so the greed-heads and politicians .LOL a2
     
  5. I7guy macrumors Core

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    #5
    At least, imo, rolling through a stop sign is not in the pervue of ethics. Neither is jaywalking. Because stopping at a sign is not a moral judgement, neither is jaywalking....to me.

    Rolling through a stop sign could be akin to double dipping chips in a dip (especially if you have hepatitis).

    Driving while intoxicated or texting while driving or cheating on your taxes, tests at school etc. might be examples of unethical behavior.

    Life can full of little examples that can challenge the definition of ethical behavior. It's hard to pin down and a lot come down to personal mores.
     
  6. Gutwrench Contributor

    Gutwrench

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    #6
    Stop signs on private property (open to the general public) can be enforceable. It depends on the state, city, and the property owner. Just hope you guessed right if you roll through them in front of a cop.

    It seems ethics is conforming to certain standards of conduct. So what’s ethical in one place may not be elsewhere. If most people stop at them, then maybe in their eyes you’re being unethical in this specific case. But I don’t think anyone cares if they’ll be perceived as ethical or not in a matter this insignificant.
     
  7. Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #7
    I'm not so certain that I would consider the situation you have cited as one governed by ethics, rather than one governed and guided by common courtesy and common sense.
     
  8. machenryr macrumors 6502

    machenryr

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    #8
    I differentiate ethics from morals. Ethics I see as a personal gradation between right and wrong. They are lined up against society. Morals tend to be governed by a societal, religious or legal code. Moral code. It generally enforced by a church, municipalities, marriage vows, family agreements, police.

    I believe they are often interchangeable. I believe ethics are within us. A thief’s ethics may say he’d be wrong to not walk into that open door of an empty house and take something. But morals can change through the ages. In Ancient Greece it may not have been immoral to have sex with young people of the same sex.
     
  9. jeyf macrumors 65816

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    #9
    keep it simple:
    be at your personal best when when driving.
     
  10. machenryr macrumors 6502

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    Yes. That says, FOR ME that’s would be unethical to not stop. Not saying I wouldn’t from time to time. It’s also against the agreed upon code of driving conduct.

    But like passing the fruit or nut bins at the store. I wouldn’t pick at food. But i see many people chomping away at nuts and cherries.
     
  11. millerj123 macrumors 68000

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    #11
    I'm torn. In a private parking lot, you don't have to follow the rules. But, I've been out on regular streets where folks don't follow the rules, and I've almost been hit 5 or 6 times this year. The only reason I haven't is that when I'm running, I'm paying attention to drivers who are not.

    it's easier to keep safe habits than to try and remember what you are supposed to do if you regularly ignore process.
     
  12. Crowbot macrumors 6502

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    #12
    It starts with petty things like that but can more easily progress to more grievous things. Best to be good when no one is looking.
     
  13. a2jack macrumors 6502

    a2jack

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    And one day it may save your life. a2
     
  14. velocityg4 macrumors 601

    velocityg4

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    #14
    Ethically wrong? No, I don't see anything ethically wrong. Ethics is more about treating another person with honesty and integrity.

    I'd say it goes more along the lines of reckless. I don't think simply going through a grocery store stop sign is necessarily reckless. As long as you maintain full situational awareness and drive slowly enough to stop immediately. My bigger concern is "but roll though at under 10mph,". That implies traveling at over 10MPH in a parking lot near the front when there is not a stop sign and just under with a stop sign. Which is entirely too fast. Often there are many obstructions where a child could pop out without looking. Giving you too little time for that speed.
     
  15. ucfgrad93 macrumors P6

    ucfgrad93

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    #15
    I sometimes do the same but around 5 mph.
     
  16. Huntn thread starter macrumors demi-god

    Huntn

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    #16
    It has to do with an attitude of following perceived law or a symbol of authority or rejecting it which might be considered related to ethics. In general is obeyence of laws consider to be a ethical position, although I stated that this case is probably not an enforceable law if it is a law at all.

    It’s ok if you disagree, but the definition I posted used moral in the definition of ethics.
     
  17. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

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    #17
    Not sure about ethical since you are to a degree disobeying a sign but I would say what you are doing makes sense and see nothing wrong with it
     
  18. Huntn thread starter macrumors demi-god

    Huntn

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    #18
    I’m interested if anyone has any other examples they could bring up?

    I’m thinking it is a sign that directs you to do something, and the individual decides whether to obey or not. I’m thinking that by the definition I posted, ethics would be involved, but maybe only a little.
     
  19. Huntn thread starter macrumors demi-god

    Huntn

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    #19
    I can see different people saying yes, no, or does not apply to ethics. Two, maybe all of those answers have already been given. So really there is no right answer, just a discussion of ethics or what we thinks qualifies as ethics.

    I could have said that I don’t believe in stopping at stop signs on public roads, and in fact I don’t completely stop, at best I pause only stopping when I see conflicting no traffic. Would hat be judged differently? I think the judgement boils down to if the individual believes all laws should be obeyed, or if a bad law (in the person’s perception) can be ignored and take the chance of being called to task about their action.
     
  20. a2jack macrumors 6502

    a2jack

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    @Huntn asks. "I’m interested if anyone has any other examples they could bring up?"

    Yes, the big one we are all avoiding...Do we open our borders to the new waves of migrants ?

    Do we pick and choose? Whom do we exclude ? Do we help no one ?
     
  21. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    This is Murika my friend. You will be judged no matter what you do. Just do what makes sense as you are doing already
     
  22. velocityg4 macrumors 601

    velocityg4

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    #22
    While there are convergences where law enforces ethics. I'd consider the two as separate. Mostly laws are ethically neutral.

    A generalization of "is it considered ethical to obey the law" is difficult. That would depend a lot on the society, governance, laws and time in history. Also by whose eyes you are looking through. Those in power or the populace in general.
     
  23. Scepticalscribe macrumors Westmere

    Scepticalscribe

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    #23
    I still think your example misses the point; how you proceed in this context is more down to common sense and common courtesy.

    This example falls under government policy an those who frame it, and - apart from fulminating (or applauding) at the TV, it will rarely come under the heading of individual ethics.

    However, I will pose a question which may indeed have an ethical element, or component: You are an employee - perhaps a senior employee - of a company that has been offered a very profitable tender by the authorities to manufacture what some in the media have described as "cages for children".

    How do you respond?
     
  24. Huntn, Jul 8, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2019

    Huntn thread starter macrumors demi-god

    Huntn

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    #24
    The US has been a country welcoming immigrants since the start, who also has a policy of offering asylum. I’m afraid if this particular topic takes off, it will result in this thread being moved to PRSI, which if it has to, it has too.

    We have a mess on our hands, if mess is defined as controlling illegal immigration. Even before Trump, it was established that exporting eleven million people, or some such large number would be exorbitantly expensive. I am not an expert on the rules, but my impression is that if you are illegal, other than making an asylum claim, you have no real legal path forward to becoming a citizen other than waiting on a list outside the country, ie being shipped back to your country.

    However I see an ethical issue. As you asked, do we help anyone? I’ve never been a supporter of an open border, and I do believe that countries have a right to manage visitors to their country who want to move in. And I agree, when you have 100,000 poor people who want a shot at a better life, and show up on our border, how to you choose? I don’t have a good answer from an ethical standpoint.

    The problem with Trump, is that his idea for a 2000 mile wall was stupid as “the solution” and I hold him in extremely low regard regarding his judgement in general. Personally, I don't think he gives a damn, other than for politics. He’s got immigrants working all over his businesses. I’ve always thought that using a full proof national identity card like Social Security, and leaning on employers would be a better way to control illegal immigrants, but maybe not, it’s hard to say. And then there are articles like this that muddy the water about how much illegal immigrants cost us.

    Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_impact_of_illegal_immigrants_in_the_United_States

    The Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy released a report in February 2016, stating that 11 million illegal immigrants in the United States are paying annually an estimated amount of $11.64 billion in state and local taxes, "on average an estimated 8 percent of their incomes."
     
  25. Huntn thread starter macrumors demi-god

    Huntn

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    #25
    This might boil down to how do you feel about illegal immigrants, how they and children should be treated. From what I already know, is that human psychology manifested in corporations as a generalization, is that the corporate mind too often has one standard of ethics, making $$. If it’s legal it does not matter if you disenfranchise citizens of your country for cheaper labor overseas, or you move your manufacturing so you can poison the Earth for larger profits.

    Specifically regarding making cages for children, ethically keeping children, that it is being done to save money, and it is wrong.

    But I can easily imagine a company’s thought process, this is legal and is profitable, if we don’t build them, someone else will, they broke our laws to come here, now we have to deal with them, and they are being treated humanely, other than being locked in a cell. :oops: I’d also question, why a cage or a cell instead of a dorm, a detention center until their issues can be resolved? The think the answer is $$.
     

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109 July 7, 2019