EU leaders think It's funny when Trump asks them to pay fair share

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by darksithpro, May 25, 2017.

  1. darksithpro macrumors 6502

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    #1
    Hey, fellow Americans, fellow tax payers. This is what those ungrateful European leaders think when Trump tells them they need to pay their fair share to Protect "THEM". They must think it's funny that Americans are footing the bill to protect them, because when Trump brought up the problem they began smirk and laugh like a bunch if immature arseholes. Why are we giving money to these ungrateful people, when they mock us like this?

     
  2. elistan macrumors 6502a

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    #2
    NATO is funded by members proportional to their Gross National Income. Saying it's unfair that the US pays more is like saying it's unfair that a millionaire family pays more income tax than a middle class family. (Which you might or might not agree with, I've no idea. I know that some people think it's not okay that the rich pay more. And I am not expressing an opinion here one way or the other, I just want to present the facts on how NATO is funded so that a rational discussion can hopefully happen.)

    http://www.nato.int/cps/ro/natohq/topics_67655.htm

    And for what it's worth, plenty of Americans mock the current President (just look at some of the discussions about handhsakes), so I suspect there's quite a few people who don't mind when the rest of the world mocks him too.
     
  3. darksithpro thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #3
    The majority of those members are not paying 2% of their GDP. This is not fair to Americans and other NATO members who are meeting their obligation.
     
  4. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #4
    That's because Trump doesn't know what he's talking about.

    The problem isn't that NATO members aren't paying their fair share, but rather that the European government have not followed up with agreements to spend a certain amount of their GDP on their military.

    It's an important difference that makes Trump look stupid every time he yammers on about it. That's why they're laughing. Also because we put the star of Celebrity Apprentice in charge of our country like the characters of "Idiocracy." Which would be hilarious if it weren't at once so goddamned terrifying.
     
  5. darksithpro thread starter macrumors 6502

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    http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-share-breakdown-country-2017-2

    Only five of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization's 28 member countries last year met the alliance goal of spending at least 2% of their gross domestic product on defense.

    "America will meet its responsibilities, but if your nations do not want to see America moderate its commitment to the alliance, each of your capitals needs to show its support for our common defense," Mattis said.

    Here's a breakdown of each country's contribution, based on 2016 figures provided by NATO:



    United States, 3.61%.

    Greece, 2.38%.

    Britain, 2.21%.

    Estonia, 2.16%.

    Poland, 2%.

    France, 1.78%.

    Turkey, 1.56%.

    Norway, 1.54%.

    Lithuania, 1.49%.

    Romania, 1.48%.

    Latvia, 1.45%.

    Portugal, 1.38%.

    Bulgaria, 1.35%.

    Croatia, 1.23%.

    Albania, 1.21%.

    Germany, 1.19%.

    Denmark, 1.17%.

    Netherlands, 1.17%.

    Slovakia, 1.16%.

    Italy, 1.11%.

    Czech Republic, 1.04%.

    Hungary, 1.01%.

    Canada, 0.99%.

    Slovenia, 0.94%.

    Spain, 0.91%.

    Belgium, 0.85%.

    Luxembourg, 0.44%.
     
  6. elistan macrumors 6502a

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    #6
    Ah, you're talking about the 'indirect funding bit.' Yes, NATO has a guideline that each member country should dedicate 2% of their GDP to defense spending. (Which is quite different than 'direct funding' of NATO, which I discussed above.)

    From the page I already linked to:
     
  7. ChrisWB macrumors 6502

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    #7
    Do you understand how NATO works? We're not paying money into a giant pot. Each country funds its own military independently. Member states (including the US) are supposed to spend 2% of their GDP on their own military. They're not supposed to give that money to NATO, or to the US.

    Germany spent less in the past years because it's preparing a large-scale revamp of its military.

    Italy and Greece spent less because they're in a recession.

    Turkey just ramped up their military spending, so they're probably over the 2% mark already.
     
  8. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #8
    Let me make this very simple for the dullards out there:

    Americans - all Americans, you, me, the millionaires and billionaires in Trump's cabinet, the slack-jawed yokels whinging on about Obamacare - would all be vastly better off if we didn't spend so much on our military.

    America's excess military spending is one of the main reasons our standard of living has stagnated in this country, while most of Europe has passed us by.

    Did you know Ireland is now, per capita, richer than the United States. ($70,00 pp vs. $58,000). That is Ireland were talking about. The same place that was wracked by brutal, deadly poverty less than a generation ago. And the Irish get six weeks of paid vacation and free healthcare.

    So, next time you are thanking some serviceperson for their service. The next time you cheer as the Blue Angels fly overhead. Or when Donald Trump fires half a billion dollars worth of expensive ordinance at an abandoned airfield in Syria.

    Just remember: That's the reason your standard of living is no better than your parents.

    That's the reason the leaders of NATO laugh at the idiot Trump.
     
  9. hulugu macrumors 68000

    hulugu

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    #9
    Right.

    As I said, "European government have not followed up with agreements to spend a certain amount of their GDP on their military."

    But, Trump keeps talking about "fair share" as if there's some fund that the Europeans are supposed to pay into. They just haven't followed up with their commitments to spend at least two percent of their GDP on defense.

    However, this metric doesn't show something important, some countries are spending more in real money each year.

    For instance, the UK spent $28 billion on defense in 2000 and increased that funding to $45 billion in 2011. Germany spent nearly $31 billion in 2000 rising to around $36 billion in 2012. In 2015, German military spending dropped to around $600 million, but still maintains a budget nearly $4 billion more than it did in 2000.

    The British are spending 60 percent more from 2000 to 2011. The Germans are spending 16 percent more from 2000 to 2015, and yet, because their economies have grown, they're spending less in relationship to their GDP.

    Now, they need to follow this agreement, or amend it, but Trump's idea that NATO members aren't paying their fair share to protect them is not correct.
     
  10. darksithpro thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #10

    Well if that's your reason then the USA should stop all funding to NATO and let them deal with their own "problems" since we're so far behind with ours. Yes, they're doing so well, like Greece being bankrupt, bail out after bail out. The UK exiting from the EU and Italy and Spain not doing so well financially. Yes, they have passed us.:rolleyes:
     
  11. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #11
    They don't think it's funny. They think it's inappropriate for Trump to chastise them in this environment.

    Also, Trump is a joke here and abroad. That's why they are laughing at him.
     
  12. darksithpro thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #12

    https://www.thelocal.de/20170301/this-is-how-much-german-military-spending-has-grown-over-time

    "The graph demonstrates a rise in military spending since 2007, with the peak reached in 2012, when Berlin spent €36.17 billion on defence.

    By 2015, Germany was spending €5 billion more on defence than at the start of the century.

    But it is clear that the federal government will have to spend much more if it is to reach the 2 percent target. To have reached that target in 2015, Germany would have had to spend €67 billion on its military.

    According to Foreign Minister Sigmar Gabriel, who says the target in unrealistic, Berlin needs to increase its defence budget by €25 billion to €30 billion year-on-year until 2024 to hit the NATO minimum.

    Merkel herself has conceded that, based on military spending alone, Germany won’t hit the figure. But she argues that money spent on international development and crisis prevention should also be included in the figures."
     
  13. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #13
    Are you not reading?

    The US doesn't "fund" NATO. The US spends what it spends on defense for its own reasons. There is not some big pot of "NATO money" that goes to pay for defense. Each country has its own military budget, that rises and falls in response to economic conditions, acquisition programs, and military and political circumstances.

    More to the point: Who is the United States protecting Germany or Britain, or Greece or Italy from? Start with trying to at least think about that question before you go off on Trumpian nonsense.
     
  14. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #14
    Wait - there's no NATO bank ala "Gringotts" run by goblins protecting the world's money?!
     
  15. darksithpro thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #15
    http://natosource.tumblr.com/post/6525063731/gates-criticizes-nato-how-much-does-us-pay

    "From David S. Morgan, CBS News: In a speech in Brussels, outgoing U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates said that America’s military alliance with Europe faces a “dim, if not dismal” future, owing to what he characterized as the United States’ disproportionate funding of NATO operations, and of allies “willing and eager for American taxpayers to assume the growing security burden left by reductions in European defense budgets… .”

    The United States contributes between one-fifth and one-quarter of NATO’s budget. In FY2010 that contribution totaled $711.8 million.

    But that factors in only direct payments, not deployments of personnel which - outside of special operations, such as in Afghanistan or Libya - may be used to train European forces (for example, in anti-terrorism skills) that benefit U.S. security. …

    America’s contribution to NATO’s military budget - provided through the Department of the Army’s Operations and Maintenance account - is under 23 percent. The U.S. contributed $408.051 million and $430.381 million, respectively, in FY2009 and FY2010, according to the Congressional Budget Service.
    After the U.S., the largest contributors to NATO’s military budget are Germany (16.6 percent); France (12.4 percent); United Kingdom (12 percent); Italy (7.8 percent); Canada (5 percent); Spain (4.2 percent); Netherlands (3.3 percent); Belgium (2.6 percent); Poland (2.3 percent); Turkey (1.8 percent); Denmark (1.7 percent); and Norway (1.6 percent). Fifteen countries make up the remaining 5.8 percent.

    The U.S. contribution to NATO’s Civil budget, provided through the State Department’s Contributions to International Organizations, is approximately 21.7 percent, with payments of $66.1 million and $84.1 million, respectively, made In FY2009 and FY2010… .

    America’s shares of the NSIP [NATO Security Investment Program] budget has slightly decreased in recent years, to 21.7 percent. The U.S. provides funds to NSIP through military construction appropriations: $330.867 million in FY 2009, $197.414 million in FY2010."
     
  16. niploteksi macrumors regular

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    #16
    They laugh because Trump is an immature arsehole and a complete idiot. I'm surprised they can keep a straight face half the time he opens his mouth.

    He's not my president, but I'm still embarrassed on behalf of my American friends.
     
  17. ChrisWB macrumors 6502

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    #17
    The US chooses to deploy troops abroad. It is the government's choice. It's not reasonable for the US to expect other countries to reimburse us for our optional war games.
     
  18. niploteksi macrumors regular

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    #18
    If anything, the US should reimburse European NATO members for the cost of all the refugees.
     
  19. darksithpro thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #19
    It's not Americas fault they decided to take them in, thus not our responsibility.
     
  20. ChrisWB macrumors 6502

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    #20
    I lean fairly right on this issue, so I won't say anything other than I disagree. ;)

    I only commented in this thread because it seems as if the thread starter has no knowledge of how NATO functions.
     
  21. niploteksi macrumors regular

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    #21
    The left in the US want's to pay us for taking care of the refugees? I'm crossing my fingers for the next election then.
     
  22. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #22
    BTW - this same day Trump shoved the PM of Montenegro out of the way - would you call that mature?
     
  23. The-Real-Deal82 macrumors 603

    The-Real-Deal82

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    #23
    You could always buy your weapons systems somewhere else and develop them yourself in future?

    I laughed as Trump hadn't got a clue who pays what lol.
     
  24. BaldiMac macrumors 604

    BaldiMac

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    #24
    Perhaps you can look at those numbers in context and see that you are arguing about fractions of a percent of our defense budget with this post.
     
  25. darksithpro thread starter macrumors 6502

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    #25
    All he said is that those European countries that are part of the NATO alliance need to pay at least 2% of their GDP.

    Article 5: Collective defense means that an attack against one Ally is considered as an attack against all Allies.

    If the US is spending almost 4% of it's GDP on defense and most EU countries less than 2% then what advantage does that give the US? That just means If we ever need help in war we're SOL when it comes to most EU countries, but if they need our help, then we automatically come over and fix their problems. It's not a fair alliance.
     

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