Eu vote Uk

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by deany, Jun 6, 2016.

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  1. deany macrumors 68020

    deany

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    #1
    Hi

    Okay, I'm on the fence I cant decide on whether to vote the UK out or say in Europe.

    I very much want to vote in what I believe in. I understand that there as so many arguements for and againt, so no need to really go into details (unless you really want too)

    But can I confirm when it all 'boils down to it' the pro exit from Eruo just dont want anymore Europeans to enter the UK?

    That is the underlining arguement.

    Thanks you for advice,

    deany
     
  2. Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #2
    Ask yourself:

    What would be the advantage of britain staying in the EU?
     
  3. VulchR macrumors 68020

    VulchR

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    #3
    Also, supposedly EU regulations are strangling business, which IMO decodes to the EU is stopping the race to the bottom with regard to worker benefits, working conditions and on-the-job safety.

    In any case, to answer Meister's question, at least for mobile young people one advantage is being able to work anywhere in the EU (Ireland, France, Germany, the Baltic states all sound interesting to me). Others include: EU civil liberties legislation, freedom to travel without visa's, the collective security and economic benefits when considering potential competition (and possibly adversaries) or the US, Russia, China, India, etc., and to my mind the largest advantage: reduction of the likelihood of war that seems has regularly broken out in Europe over the years. Before the EU, Europe made the current Middle East look peaceful.
     
  4. Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #4
    Open borders have more disadvantages than advantages. The EU would not face the current migrant crisis if they wouldn't have gotten rid of their borders.

    A common market and workplace create vunerable dependencies as we've seen with Cyprus and Greece. The EU is basically just waiting for the next crash to happen.

    I fail to see the "economic benefits" you are refering to. I've lived in pre-Euro europe and post-Euro europe and the individual economic situation of citizens has declined dramaticaly!
    The only people who benefit from the common market and currency are the richest of the rich.
    We are now facing a generation of "millenials" who cannot remember the pre-Euro prosperity.

    I have no idea what you could possibly mean with "collective security" and the civil liberties situation is more than questionable.
     
  5. DUCKofD3ATH Suspended

    DUCKofD3ATH

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    #5
    Open borders is a good reason for the Brexit which is also ticking off a fair number of other members who may decide to follow the UK out the door. Check out why Switzerland decided against implementing a basic income.
     
  6. deany thread starter macrumors 68020

    deany

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    #6
    Thanks for your replies.
    Okay so if I was in need of help and lived in Europe the UK (if not in Europe) would not be an 'option' as the 'border' would be closed or at least far more difficult to enter.

    Please answer:

    Yes
    or
    No

    thank you

    deany
     
  7. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #7
    Pre-Euro prosperity? You mean like the hungry and starving in the Communist side of Europe? East Germany? Czechoslovakia? Hungry? Austria? Romania? Bulgaria? Yugoslavia? The genocide and ethnic cleansing both before and after WW1 and WW2? That pre-Euro prosperity?

    You really don't know your history, and it's sad that others outside of your continent know it better.

    You know.. not having one European country invade another, bringing the entire world to war on that European country's and every other European country's doorsteps.. Like a certain 2 countries did.. one of them twice.

    Not sayin', but I'm tryin' to say...

    BL.
     
  8. Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #8
    What kind of help?
    What are you talking about?
     
  9. aaronvan Suspended

    aaronvan

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    #9
    If you're undecided you're uninformed so don't vote.
     
  10. Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #10
    I am talking about western pre-Euro europe, not the eastern block.

    I know that that's the EU propaganda, but the current EU doesn't have much to do anymore with preventing wars in europe. It hasn't for decades.
     
  11. caesarp macrumors 6502a

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    #11
    I don't live there, but I would suggest voting to stay. Otherwise, Scotland will look even harder to go on its own. Then you might start to see the breakup of the U.K. I don't want to see the sun set further on the British empire and I like the Union Jack.
     
  12. haxrnick macrumors 6502a

    haxrnick

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    #12
    To be fair, BL, you have let us know on many occasions that there isn't much you don't know.
     
  13. deany thread starter macrumors 68020

    deany

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    #13
    Iam talking about 'May Gods Love be with you, always'.

    That kind of help.
     
  14. Meister Suspended

    Meister

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    #14
    o_O

    Just vote for the Brexit.
     
  15. deany thread starter macrumors 68020

    deany

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    #15
    Why, please?
     
  16. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #16
    @deany ,there is no easy answer to this it'll be a loss which ever way you vote.The only advice I could give is to look at the main figures in the leave campaign and then think what they could do after a leave vote.Not a pretty picture.
     
  17. cube macrumors G5

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    #17
    Somebody should make a list of all the protections you're getting in the UK thanks to the EU.

    And how your government sometimes votes against those.

    It is true that sanctions might provoke retaliation, but dumping is dumping, and there are WTO rules.

    If you are outside the EU, you will have to agree to a lot of things to get benefits from it, and you will still have to pay, so you will have less influence in exchange for limited additional freedom.

    However, one must watch out that Europe does not derail into a free-for-all. Will you be safer by yourself?
     
  18. bradl macrumors 68040

    bradl

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    #18
    You can't exclude Eastern Europe from 'pre-Euro', as you can't take only the good and not the bad. Either you take all of Europe, or none of Europe. You can not take the spoils while trying to shove the atrocities under the carpet.

    It's akin to you saying "Enjoy the fruits of our prosperity", while denying the Holocaust.

    --- Post Merged, Jun 6, 2016 ---
    To also be fair, I don't see you posting anything relating to the topic. So should we conclude that you know nothing about this either except to attack ad hominem? After all, there isn't anything you've said in your post pertaining to the topic of the thread.

    BL.
     
  19. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #19
    I don't know how I would vote if I was living in the UK or if we had our own referendum.
    Ideally I would like the EU integration rolled back instead of just dismantling/exiting the EU but I don't think that is going to be an option.
     
  20. Scepticalscribe, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2016

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #20
    Short background: Since WW2, Britain has had a problem with its identity. It doesn't know - or cannot decide - whether it wants to be a European country - or an Atlantic one.

    Historically, it had its Empire, (now a matter of history); more recently, it has had the commonwealth, but this is now a notional body wth little that is 'common' apart from the Monarch, and is not really a serious political body with common - or shared - goals and policies.

    And then, it became a somewhat reluctant member of the EU.

    Actually, Britain joined the EU (or EEC as it was) in 1973. Before that, it had applied - twice - first in 1963, and again, in 1967, to join what was then the EEC - but France vetoed the British application for entry on both occasions.

    France (under General de Gaulle) feared that GB would be a trojan horse for US interests in Europe, and was worried that Britain saw the EU just as a trading body (a common market) and couldn't care less about the economic, political and social aspects, and was concerned that Britain wanted to undermine the Common Agricultural Policy (which was dear to France as they had a huge agricultural sector). And - an edited aside: France was not entirely wrong to voice such concerns.

    Historically, the EU was - among other matters - a political project secured by economic means. The political project was designed to allow Germany to exist while simultaneously ensuring that the rest of Europe felt safe. Those two facts - the existence of Germany and the security of Europe - had been fundamentally incompatible for 80 years and had led to three wars between Germany and France between 1870 and 1945. (The economic means included a free market in industry - to promote German industry, trade and exports, with 'protection' - in other words guaranteed subsidies - in agriculture, to ensure that this key area of interest for France was securely funded).

    Plusses, for Britain: For Britain, deregulation in 1987, and (and this 'and' is very important) the introduction of the Single European Market in 1989 meant that London regained its place as a major world centre for the trading and movement of global capital. (It had lost this by the 1970s).

    Financial Costs for the City of London: If the UK leaves Europe, London's position will undoubtedly be affected negatively. This is for three reasons:

    Firstly, the rest of Europe will not permit the largest financial centre in Europe to remain in a country that is not in the EU; you can expect that Paris, or, much more likely, Frankfurt, would seek to shift the centre of financial gravity to Europe, probably to Frankfurt.

    Secondly, if London wants to retain its preeminence, and continue to trade with European bodies - it will still have to adhere to EU regulation - even though it will be outside the Union. This is because EU trading is subject to EU regulation, as is any body or country that wishes to do business with it.

    Thus, even if Britain is outside the Union, any body, or bank, or business that wishes to trade with any body, bank, business, company, or institution in Europe will have to have accepted European standards of regulation (the Swiss, Norwegians and others have already signed up to such regulation); the idea that Brexit will lead to no EU regulation is a nonsense. Yes, you can have no regulation, but at the cost of no trade with the EU or any body, business, company, or bank within it.

    British financial institution will be faced with a choice of trade with Europe (and be subject to European regulation), or find oneself outside the system, less attractive to both the US and other investors.

    But even those who deal in dodgy monies want the advantages of secure banking systems guaranteed by governments and the rule of law even if their income is derived from a world of light regulation elsewhere.

    The third reason is that Brussels will make the UK financial system suffer, should there be an exit, if only to send a sharp message to other recalcitrant countries (Poland, for example, Hungary doesn't count) not to even think of trying to pull a similar stunt.

    Other costs: The UK will not survive Brexit as the UK. Scotland will almost certainly demand another referendum on independence and this time, it will be carried. This will also give rise to questions about Northern Ireland - re-raising a spectre of idiocy in that province that everyone thought had been sorted two decades ago.

    Re Immigration & Borders: The UK is an island, and can police its borders anyway - it is not part of Schengen - because of its geography.

    Besides, Britain's homegrown terrorists are not as a result of excessive European immigration, but have evolved as a result (mostly) of homegrown individuals, lingering legacies and hangovers from its own Empire. The radicalised Muslims who planted the bombs in London in July 2005, and those who have tried to head off to Syria in recent years were British Muslims whose ancestors had mostly come from Pakistan (or, less often, Bangladesh), in other words, second and third generation immigrants from places that the British had once ruled.

    Now, I recall the mosque in Finsbury in London where much of that insanely radical preaching was taking place having been pointed out to me as long ago as the year 1999; in other words, none of this is new, and the authorities - some of them - were aware of some of this stuff quite some time ago.

    Re the free movement of people in Europe: From 2004, - when the Warsaw Pact (the old Eastern Europe) joined the EU, the UK, Ireland and Sweden implemented the directive on the free movement of people - allowing those from Eastern Europe to legally work in their countries (the rest of Europe had a derogation - an exemption - for five years). This allowed for the proverbial 'Polish plumber' or Lithuanian au pair to work in the UK, quite legally - and there are few in the UK who did not benefit from this labour or from these people. These immigrants were hard working and determined to maximise their opportunities for the most part, and were an asset to the countries they migrated to.

    Personally, I would recommend that you vote to stay.

    Financially, and politically Britain is better in Europe, and Europe is better with Britain in it.
     
  21. cube macrumors G5

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    #21
    EU officials have acknowledged the issue, and theoretically going to take a break.
     
  22. juanm macrumors 65816

    juanm

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    #22
    Exactly. The cons to staying in the EU that the pro-Brexit crowd brandishes (think Meister) are not inherently EU's fault. If Brexit happens, the problem will remain (ha!) unsolved.

    It's just a desperate attempt by the populist parties to find an easy scapegoat to either gain power, or to blame their mismanagement on, if they were already in power.
     
  23. Cox Orange, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016

    Cox Orange macrumors 68000

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    #23
    Not that I probably should post here anyway, but...

    @OP
    Consider european stock exchange. If England will be out of the EU, London will not be the EU's stock centrum. The licenses and jobs will move to Frankfurt or Paris. Research the further influences.

    British products will be more expensive, outside the EU, because they would e.g. have to pay taxes to countries they import to. Meaning Britain will sell less or have to produce at lower costs (cutting wages or killing jobs). OK, EU products will be more expensive outside the EU, too, but...

    Also, the small mayor who looks like a bad village level Trump parody actor or one of the stupid, fat characters the comedian Matt Lucas would make up, does tell you, that Britain has to "pay" a lot to the EU every year, but he doesn't tell you what money Britain gets from the EU every year.

    Just look some BCC or search through there website, I am pretty sure they have an article that combines advantages and disadvantages.

    RE: scotland, I can think of the EU not taking them in, after the brexit, when they would have to apply again, for the simple reason, that the EU knows of the EU's responsibility and will not want to destroy the UK's economic power, because it needs the UK on other topics, still (military campaigns etc.).

    Edit: ok, so while I was writing (and getting a coffee, before starting to write), scepticalscribe mentioned a lot in his perfect post, so sorry, if I repeated some points in some way, just with worse and limited language.
     
  24. Scepticalscribe, Jun 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2016

    Scepticalscribe Contributor

    Scepticalscribe

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    #24
    Candidly, the EU (the 'old EU', that is, such as France, the Netherlands, and Germany, - as the 'new' countries of the EU, those in the old eastern Europe have a very different perspective on this matter) does not want to be seen as an arm of NATO; this hurts it diplomatically, and economically, - and quite seriously, I don't think that argument will carry very much weight.

    The strongest argument against Scotland joining the EU as an independent nation is Catalonia - Spain will not wish to support a situation which may be seen to serve to further weaken the internal structural institutional integrity of the Spanish state (such as it is), and might see admitting Scotland as a precedent for the further disintegration of Spain by giving Catalonia the idea that it might have a future as an independent state.

    Thus, I expect Spain (because of Catalonia) to veto any Scottish application. The rest of Europe would be sympathetic, because Scotland is an old nation, has long had ties to Europe historically (especially France), and is, itself, very pro-EU. Domestically, it has long loathed Tory rule; and its political centre of gravity is considerably further left than is London's.
     
  25. unlinked macrumors 6502a

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    #25
    It is nice for 'officials' to say the right things but the EU isn't exactly very voter led.
    Pretty sure I will vote against any further EU integration irrespective of what it is just on principle since so few EU citizens get a chance to vote.
     
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