Euthanasia

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by jkcerda, Jun 1, 2019.

  1. jkcerda macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #1
    The stigma behind it needs to end
    https://www.fastcompany.com/90355474/the-worlds-leading-euthanasia-advocate-designs-a-death-pod
     
  2. mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

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    #2

    I have mixed feelings on the subject. Im all for personal choice, even with death but it's a double edge sword. Without a doubt, I think those that are terminal should get a say on the matter. It's inhumane to take that choice away in those dire times.

    My concerns are how do you make it safe and secure that the patient is receiving the care that they want. Others around those who are terminal might not have their best concerns for that person. There are a number of variables that have to be addressed.

    Im also against the idea for anyone not terminal. If you want to commit suicide because you lost your instagram account along with your followers, then get help.
     
  3. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #3
  4. jagolden macrumors 6502a

    jagolden

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    #4
    I’ve had my personal ‘exit plan” in place for years. Not afraid to move on when circumstances call for it
    Only I can ever truly understand the rational and I’m OK with that.
     
  5. The-Real-Deal82 macrumors 604

    The-Real-Deal82

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    #5
    I’ve supported euthanasia since watching family members die of cancer. My step father and myself researched ways for him to commit suicide but make it look like an accident he was that desperate. In the end he died at home on a morphine drive and it was absolutely horrific for everybody. He should have been allowed dignity. We wouldn’t let a dog suffer but we seem to insist on humans hanging on when there is no hope.
     
  6. AlliFlowers Contributor

    AlliFlowers

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    L.A. (Lower Alabama)
    #6
    This is something my mother and I discuss regularly. She does not want to go out from a nursing home, or (like my father), only after the family spends weeks being to remove life support.

    Assisted suicide needs another name for starters. It should be viewed as a blessing, and accessible to all. I love the concept of the Sarco. Reminds me of the final scene in Soylent Green.

    Does the Sarco really do the job? If so, why can't we use it instead of the current options for prisoners being put to death?
     
  7. Strider64 macrumors 6502a

    Strider64

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    #7
    I saw my mother waste away in a nursing home because of dementia/Alzheimer's for a year and half. I believe in euthanasia 100 percent as people deserve to die with dignity.
     
  8. statik13 macrumors regular

    statik13

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    #8
    My brother-in-law died of cancer in his 30s. He fought hard, but lost. At the end nothing could be done but months in the hospital in palliative care. He repeated daily that he was ready to go. Instead, everyone had to wait, watching him go through his personal hell, until his organs shut down one by one and his life was nothing but a morphine drip.

    The pain and struggle of not only him, but also his young wife and kids haunts our families nearly a decade later.

    Fully support people being able to make the choice to die with dignity.
     
  9. Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    Apr 11, 2011
    #9
    You are so correct.

    My mom is currently at what could be described as a nursing home. About 5 weeks ago she fell and broke her tibia just below the knee. So after a 3 week hospital/rehab stay she was transferred to her current facility. This place has a wing for short-term rehab. Basically for people who aren't ready to go home, but no long need a hospital.

    The place is depressing (her wing is not bad as they are all there for less than a couple of months). Just people laying around waiting to die. Went though that with my dad and my wife and I flat out told our daughter (she is 19 now) that we will not be doing that. We will Thelma and Louise off a cliff before we lay around in one of these places.
     
  10. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    New Hampshire
    #10
    I've talked to a fair number of people around this topic. I talked to two people in their late 30s that had cancer in their 20s and were on chemo for at least 10 years and they were thinking of just stopping chemo, and enjoying whatever time they had left. I have seen people go on and off the chemo train ride over and over and over again. And it's not a good way to live. You are alive but sometimes you feel like you don't want to keep doing it.

    MS is a chronic and progressive disease and I have a friend that I've watched go through it. The MS is a result of a cancer drug that she used decades ago that has potential MS as a side-effect and it's no longer used. A year ago, we had lunch at a restaurant and she drove herself and used a walker to get around. Right now she has little mobility and requires a caretaker to move her around. Her mind is still sharp but we've spent a lot of time chatting about death and wanting it versus not fighting it anymore.
     
  11. jkcerda thread starter macrumors 6502a

    jkcerda

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    #11
    Let’s. Call “final exit choice B”
     
  12. A.Goldberg, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019

    A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #12
    I’m not entirely opposed to the idea, so long as the individual is of sound mental capacity, is indeed terminally ill. Things get complicated if someone say that is relatively younger has cancer but hasn’t undergone treatment and doesn’t want to. I’d argue you’d have to had a significant attempt at treatment... though I can also see where this could be very complicated. Medical ethics can be a tricky business.

    I absolutely think euthanasia if available needs a rigid review process and needs to be medically assisted to ensure the process is successful.

    I don’t know why this Sarco idea gets so much attention. Frankly the idea of dying alone in a death pod sounds pretty miserable.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 2, 2019 ---
    The Sarco in its newest form uses nitrogen to dilute the oxygen supply within without making the body realize it’s suffocating. As far as I can tell this would be effective and comfortable.

    I never understood why death row can’t figure out a cocktail to put prisoners to death. As a PharmD I can think of numerous ways to painlessly kill someone with readily available products. This really shouldn’t be that difficult.
     
  13. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    New Hampshire
    #13
    I don't think that you can be 100% sound mental capacity when you're facing a terminal illness. It takes a while to sink in and then you are in despair with all kinds of worry. Medical technology continues to improve and sometimes there is a cure out there but finding it takes an incredible amount of effort.

    I've been put under a few times with Propofil. You fall gently to sleep and wake up as if it was only seconds later and you remember nothing. That seems like a very peaceful way to go.
     
  14. Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    #14
    I don't think the drug companies want their products used in this manner. Hence the problem of finding drugs that can be used for such purposes.
     
  15. A.Goldberg macrumors 68020

    A.Goldberg

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    #15
    That is part of the ongoing problem, particularly with sodium thiopental. I think the system of how these drugs are purchased needs to change. I believe the Pharma companies fear being sued and in some cases international manufacturers are subject to their nation’s political oversight. I’m not sure why states should have to say publicly what drugs they’re using and what companies they’re buying from. Surprisingly sodium thiopental in recent times has only been made by one company, Hospira, now part of Pfizer. But take a common substitute, Propofol, I’m guessing there’s at least half a dozen manufacturers of that.

    The silly thing is in most cases sodium thiopental (an anesthetic) is primarily used to sedate the subject (albeit they use a ridiculously high dose for safe measure). It’s not usually what is actually intended to kill them- usually that’s the job of potassium chloride which induces cardiac arrest. Some states have replaced this with pentobarbital which is reasonable, others midazolam which I personally think is a poor choice given its a benzodiazepine and inherently safer than the aforementioned barbiturates... not exactly the profile you want in a lethal injection.

    There’s opioids, sedatives, anesthetics, cardiac drugs, various gases (ie nitrogen), etc are all effective ways of killing people in a comfortable manner. And not to sound offensive, but it at low cost. When you use a widely used drug half a dozen generic manufacturers its a lot harder to attack the company making it or even boycott them. When you use a niche product made by one company, you’re bound to run into trouble. I don’t understand why a state can’t have more than one lethal injection protocol either, which could be selected based on product availability or “patient” specific factors.

    I didn’t say 100%. Mental soundness, obviously a rather vague expression, doesn’t necessarily have to imply the person can’t have depression or anxiety about dying. Those are normal emotions to have when you’re dying. The patient has to be aware and rational in the decision they are making- much like the idea of informed consent. This is a basic requirement of patient autonomy in healthcare ethics and a requirement everywhere that allows medically assisted euthanasia.

    My point was essentially I don’t think someone should be able to use euthanasia because for example they are depressed. They should have to be actually physically, terminally ill (no options- hospice basically) or be in a situation with a very low chance or survival even with treatment, especially if the treatment is painful.

    I’m all for patient autonomy, but it has to be responsible and appropriate and actually in the best interest of the patient. Patients choices have to be respected but within the confines of medical treatment. I believe euthanasia should be an option in select cases, but requires stringent guidelines. Just for the same reason I won’t give OxyContin and Xanax anyone that asks for it.
     
  16. iTurbo macrumors 6502

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    Sep 9, 2008
    #16
    Death is difficult. For anybody.

    My only experience with death is finding my own twin brother dead of an opiod overdose over 10 years ago. I actually feel lucky that I haven't lost anybody important in the meantime.

    Just last month, I/we had to clean out an apartment that a guy died in. Pills and vodka bottles galore. I brought the cops up there, but I didn't see him. The local paper said he died of a heart attack, but I know that's probably not true. He was there for 4 days, dead. It got very very smelly. We had to cut out carpet, clean out his apt, run ioniozers....it was bad. My boss had to scrub the base board heaters due to bleeding out/bodily fluids.

    The smell was bad enough that we had to use Q-tips and coat our inner noses with Vapo-Rub and the gaskets of our mask just to tolerate it.
     
  17. T'hain Esh Kelch macrumors 601

    T'hain Esh Kelch

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    #17
    I've highligted two sentences, which are clearly contradictory, as anyone not terminal would decide on it from a personal choice. So I have to ask, why are you against it? Sure, for loosing your Instagram account it is overkill (hehe), but chances are that the person has way more baggage than that, if something this small could turn them over. And even then, why should you get to decide what a random person does with their life, when it has absolutely no affect on yours?

    Personally I am all for it. It is a personal choice, and I have a very hard time seeing anything bad come out of it. Sure, family and friends will mourn for a short periode, but they will get over it. And if that person is miserable, then they shouldn't be selfish and keep that person alive just because they'll get sad.

    If that person isn't happy, and isn't willing to work with his/hers life to make it work, then it is their choice. The world is completely over populated anyway, so the fewer miserable people the better. In fact, for terminal people, or people with diseases or syndromes that makes their life unbearable, I find it completely disgusting that our society force them not to live their life their own way.
     
  18. iTurbo, Jun 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019

    iTurbo macrumors 6502

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    #18
    While I have never been in a position (not even remotely) as far as somebody deciding for their own death..

    You are right about a lot of things.

    A bit brutal though? Over population of the Earth, justifying death? That is sad and unfounded..and cold.

    It might seem like that if you live in Singapore or Shanghai, but I can guarantee you that is not the case for the world at large.
    --- Post Merged, Jun 3, 2019 ---
    You've never lost anybody have you? You are talking out your ass.
     
  19. decafjava macrumors 68030

    decafjava

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    Geneva
    #19
    Yes, that's the part of death we don't see on TV shows or movies (usually) some war films dwell on it ...
    --- Post Merged, Jun 3, 2019 ---
    I have personally, saw my father an hour after he passed. It was better seeing him that way than choking on fluid in his lungs...
     
  20. iTurbo macrumors 6502

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    #20
    I am sorry to hear that. I do feel incredibly fortunate that my parents are still here.
     
  21. T'hain Esh Kelch macrumors 601

    T'hain Esh Kelch

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    #21
    Of course I have. Plenty. Who hasn't? But could you perhaps provide a counter argument instead of acting like an 8 year old?
     
  22. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    Midlife, Midwest
    #22
    I nursed my mother through her last months of cancer. Including the final four weeks, where she was totally bedridden.

    My mom really wanted to go. She'd fought a long (multiple years) battle, and she was tired. Her body had wasted away and she was on a high dose of Fentanyl patches, and swigged Oramorph (a liquid form of morphine) like it was brandy.

    Several times she asked her physician (who was there making multiple house calls. Yeah, that's the horrors of socialised medicine for you....) for a pill or injection that would kill her.

    Obviously, he explained that they couldn't do that. They had given her plenty of medication to ensure that she wasn't in physical pain. They could end the pain. They couldn't end the discomfort of being bedridden.

    Despite, or should I say because of that experience I'm opposed to euthanasia.

    No doubt it would have been a lot more convenient for everyone involved. No more sleepless nights for me. No more fear and suffering for my mom. But it wouldn't have been right.

    As my mom's doctor had said: When her body was ready to go - it will go. And it will be a natural death. It will be a death according to the schedule of God, or the universe, or whatever combination of natural process make up life.

    In the end, that is how she went. She'd been unconscious for a few days. I looked in on her before making dinner. And sometime between the pasta and dessert, she slipped away. No drama, no tearful goodbyes.

    I was saddened. But I knew it was the way it had to be. And I knew I couldn't have stood there by mom's bedside, and watched as a doctor slipped a needle in her arm and killed her.

    Because that would have been wrong.
     
  23. mudslag macrumors regular

    mudslag

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    #23


    I should have been more clear, the personal choice is in regard for those who are terminal. Suicide because you're not happy is not the same as someone who is terminal. And yes there are down sides to this. People can try to manipulate the system. And does a terminal child get a say or do their parents override them?
     
  24. pshufd macrumors 6502a

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    New Hampshire
    #24
    I have a friend who is bedridden and struggles to move. We have talked about death a fair amount (people facing death often like to talk about it with others that have faced it). She is in a lot of pain but I doubt that she would take her own life. She has said that she wouldn't mind dying. She has gone on a number of clinical trials and applied for more even though the odds aren't great. What it shows me is how strong the will to survive is.

    I've read many accounts of cancer deaths in hospice from family members and most are of the form where the person is lucid and talking one moment and then they're gone. That doesn't sound all that bad.
     
  25. The-Real-Deal82 macrumors 604

    The-Real-Deal82

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    #25
    Sorry to hear about your mother. I suppose we all have different views on this and I am pro euthanasia as long as the person involved wants it for themselves. I couldn’t make that decision on their behalf. My step father was different because he would have taken the choice in a heartbeat. He spent 9 months contemplating his death, starting up to the early hours and it was torture for him but everybody handles it differently. He was only 51.
     

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