Fallacy: Soaking the rich increases revenue

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by danpass, Feb 27, 2011.

  1. danpass macrumors 68020

    danpass

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    #1
    I was recently reminded how MD raised the tax rate and I was curious to see how poorly socialism/communism turned out for them.



    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703976804575114241782001262.html

     
  2. codymac macrumors 6502

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    #2
    Sometimes a lesson is best learned the hard way.
     
  3. SuperCachetes macrumors 6502a

    SuperCachetes

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  4. JoeG4, Feb 27, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011

    JoeG4 macrumors 68030

    JoeG4

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    #4
    So where are all the millionaires going to move? Other countries? With the money they made here? :D Great idea.

    Meanwhile, there should be stronger penalties for tax evasion.

    So why the defensiveness? Are you a millionaire? Do you work for a millionaire? Like.. some really rich dude that pays you to be in their yacht? Since when are millionaires the only people that contribute to society?

    Let's take Apple for instance. As a company, Apple hires thousands of people in the US and probably about as many in other places around the world. Steve Jobs is a billionaire, but he gets paid $1 a year, so he probably pays no income tax at all.

    Ok, here's my question: To those that work at Apple, how is their job provided only by a millionaire? Last I checked, their insane profits were due to sales of products to mostly non-millionaires lol. The employees get paid, not sure how well, but they do get paid for their work (Hrmm.. I'd say the Apple store employees are underpaid).

    Where exactly in that scheme is the millionaire very important? Steve Jobs? Come on! Last I checked, you didn't have to be a millionaire to buy an Apple product.

    You don't have to be a millionaire to buy a car either! Many Toyotas, GMs, Fords, and Hondas are made in the US............ however, what US-made car do Millionaires buy? Oh that's right.. Mercedes and Bentleys and BMWs that are generally made in Germany and various other parts of the world. *@#%! Oh yea, let's support Mercedes - a company that kept afloat by eating up one of our own major car companies and almost putting thousands of Americans out of work by their own greed.

    Poor people can't afford to buy American and it's unfashionable for rich people to do it. **** that ****, why bother?
     
  5. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

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    #5
    more that shows the rich know how to cheat the system. For exmaple from the article rich often time has 2 homes. The could change their residency to the other home even if they say in IL 10-11 months out of hte year. Screws the system and they are not paying their fair share.
    If you want to force the rich to pay their fair share raise the property tax and make it harder to get around other BS exceptions. Big time if it is on home over X value. Hard to change your place of residency if it is going after property in the state.

    Also you should look at military personal. You will see a lot of them "Resided" in Texas because so many of them have to go threw Texas for basic training or something else and Texas has no income Tax. So there resident is Texas but they could be any were in the country no paying local taxes.
     
  6. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #6
    So what does this article prove? It says right there that the recession was a major factor, and the rest involved people trying to cheat the system. That doesn't prove that higher taxation on the rich is a bad idea, only that it's necessary to find a better method of taxation that people can't weasel out of.

    "Soak" the rich? Please. Let me get out my violin.
     
  7. gkarris macrumors 604

    gkarris

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    #7
    You have to remember that the US is VERY INDIVIDUALISTIC.

    The rich see paying money to the government or helping the poor as simply squandering it on deadbeats.

    In other countries, the rich see paying taxes and helping the poor as something good for both their country and their culture.

    Hence, why the US economy and culture as far as Globalization is starting to tank badly...
     
  8. Eraserhead macrumors G4

    Eraserhead

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    #8
    Picking the year the US went into a major recession doesn't really make a particularly interesting point...
     
  9. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #9
    It's embarrassing but just about OK to utter these thoughts inside your brain but to do it on a public forum is definitely bad form.Catch yourself on for Christ's sake.
     
  10. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #10

    Unfortunately, I'm coming to the reluctant conclusion that when an American uses the words 'communism' or 'socialism'... they haven't got the slightest clue what they are, what these terms mean or what the hell they're talking about.

    Top earning marginal rates in the US averaged about 72% when Nixon was in office, 50% for Reagan for the bulk of his two terms. And when Eisenhower was in office, the top band was over 90%. All Republican presidents.

    Was the nation socialist or communist then? No.
     
  11. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #11
    Confusmouse say:

    A squeaky wheel is forever dry,

    No matter the grease we apply.

    :D
     
  12. rdowns macrumors Penryn

    rdowns

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    #12

    I've come to the reluctant conclusion that when many Americans uses the words 'communism' or 'socialism'…they really want to say n*****.
     
  13. Peterkro macrumors 68020

    Peterkro

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    #13
    A little coarse and it refers to many white people but yes you're right.:)
     
  14. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #14

    Say what you like. They're your country-men and women, not mine... so you're allowed to go all in. :)

    And if I hear anyone call a liberal a Nazi, then I suggest that they go visit some local members of the American Nazi Party and make close friends with them by asking them if they're liberals...

    Anyway, as others have stated, state revenues have dropped markedly since the recession. Very little to do with tax rates. Cherry-picking the figures from one state over one year at the beginning of the deepest recession for almost 80 years is gross dishonesty, not that I'd expect anything less from an opinion piece in the WSJ.

    Let's see total revenues as percentages of inflation-adjusted expenditures matched against tax rates since the 1950s, after the second world war, across a number of western economies for instance... to start making any sort of coherent factual argument about the relationship between tax rates, government spending and economic growth.

    I'll check in later after to see what the result is. ;)
     
  15. SuperCachetes, Feb 27, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011

    SuperCachetes macrumors 6502a

    SuperCachetes

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    #15
    [​IMG]

    Billboard in Texas. I get a chuckle every time I think about it, because I really don't see any negative connotation to the word "socialist" anyway. :p

    More importantly, as others have chimed in about, the article so much as admitted that a huge reason the revenues fell is because the millionaires left the state. If I were a millionaire and had places to go, I'd probably do the same.

    But that doesn't mean the concept was a failure - what was a failure was poking down one gopher without expecting him to pop up in any other available hole. A state-by-state tactic riddled with loopholes will rarely work to its maximum potential. Tighten up the law, and apply it nationally, and you might be onto something. ;)
     
  16. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #16
    My sentiments exactly. Murdoch's ownership has simply succeeded in bringing out the worst in the WSJ. He has some sort of dystopic Midas touch, that man.
     
  17. iJohnHenry macrumors P6

    iJohnHenry

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    #17
    Ah, but that is you. ;)

    Remember, if they scream "raving heterosexual" enough times, the idiots will assume a negative connotation, and govern themselves accordingly.
     
  18. senseless macrumors 68000

    senseless

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    #18
    As far as the populist "soak the rich" campaign speak, rich people pay plenty of taxes, don't worry. Plus, they don't get student aid for their kids, pay lots of property taxes, and don't take advantage of earned income tax credits and many other programs that rightly benefit poor families.

    The problem is that the tax code is loaded with special interest tax loopholes that have to be eliminated. That's where the fairness issue lies, IMHO.
     
  19. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #19
  20. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    I saw Lawrence O'Donnell on Meet the Press yesterday, and in talking of the top 1% of richest people he made the argument that the current tax code, in which two married doctors making a couple hundred thousand a year pay the same rate as Bill Gates or Warren Buffett, is ridiculous. Can't say I disagree with him.

    Well now you're just being logical. Stop that! :D
     
  21. Huntn macrumors G5

    Huntn

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    #21
    I remember Warren Buffett paraded his secretary before the camera and asked why should he pay less taxes than his $60k per year secretary? When is this madness going to stop? If you vote Republican, never.
     
  22. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

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    #22
    Considering what I do for a living, some might consider me to be fairly well versed on the topic, but I wouldn't ask my "client(s)" to make policy decisions based on my instincts. I'd research the issue and review other expert's analysis and conclusions.

    For anyone who's not sure, the Laffer curve theorizes that lower taxes will increase revenue if you are on one side of the curve, and if on the other, higher taxes will raise revenue. If you are on the left of the curve or the point at which revenue is maximized by a rate higher than what we currently have, then lowering taxes will reduce revenue / not increase revenue. Here are a few people who could be considered experts:

     

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