Fascist America, in 10 easy steps

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Blue Velvet, Apr 23, 2007.

  1. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

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    #1


    http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2064157,00.html


    Would you like freedom fries with that? Have a nice day. :)



     
  2. Blue Velvet thread starter Moderator emeritus

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    #3
    As an outsider and one not given to knowing about the finer points of legal freedoms in the US, I found this bit especially alarming:




    What next? Banned from what else next? On one hand, you let mentally-unstable people tool up for a spot of human target practice, and on the other, stop people — who happen to publicly criticise the government — from flying?

    What amuses and also dismays me is how many people on this forum fail to see the absurdity and tragedy in this, preferring to dwell in the comforting myth of the shining city on the hill.

    And of course, those of us who aren't American who have the temerity — the sheer gall — to criticise, are accused by some of anti-Americanism, giving even more reason to close ranks and shrilly wrap yourselves in the flag and apple pie.

    But I like apple pie.
     
  3. Queso macrumors G4

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    #4
    Nice to see someone put it down so succinctly, but before we get smug, it looks like a lot of those steps are being taken in the UK too. People like Shami Chakrabati have been highlighting our own slide towards fascism for a few years now, although we're a few years behind the US on the path.

    The one thing we have in our favour is the EU. It's the moderating influence ordinary British people need to keep our government in check. Possibly why the far right are so adamant we should be leaving it.
     
  4. Dont Hurt Me macrumors 603

    Dont Hurt Me

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    #5
    All govts desire control over the masses, I dont care of which form we are talking about either. Bush and his draft dodgers have done a heck of a job using Bin Laden whom he never caught as a excuse to kill the constitution,bill of rights and geneva convention. Solution dont vote republican for at least a decade perhaps two. Its what im doing. The corporations have nearly taken over our govt with Bush & his draft dodging republicans help.
     
  5. faintember macrumors 65816

    faintember

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    #6
    Your post made me totally agree with you and totally hate you, and for that I salute you.

    First, about the "anti-American" phrase. I think it is mainly that we are tired of hearing it, especially from those outside of the country. We have a government in place that is basically decided by a split country (Presidentially speaking here). We also have a country where more people turn out for Sanjaya than the Presidential election. Abraham Lincoln said it himself: "A house divided against itself cannot stand". Now he wasn't talking about our current predicament, but slavery, I know this, but it is similar in that both issues have split the nation (and I am not talking about American Idol). Anyways, I digress. I just wanted to say that I don't think that you are anti-American, I just question your motives. If you want to help America, feel free to discuss the issues, but if you want to belittle, please move on. This is not directed towards any specific person, so don't take it as a personal attack Blue.

    Second, what the hell are us Americans supposed to do?
    <prepare for a rant>
    We have a two party system, where both parties are, for the most part, so similar during election time and so different as soon as their term begins. Sure, there are a few differences such as pro-life/choice, pro/anti-taxes, etc. but rarely do we hear discussion about things other than these common topics. Where is the serious, non-BS talk about healthcare? What about education reform? Why is it that Johnny and Jane are more worried about their standardized test scores than actually learning something for more than the 2-3 hour time period require to regurgitate said "knowledge" on a scan-tron sheet? Where is the Social Security reform? Why does educational funding basically stop after 4-year undergraduate programs? Etc. Etc.

    The problem is there is a lack of competition, and no need to really work on issues and actually do something about them. This is why I strongly believe in a multi-party system, and political campaign fund-raising caps. Limit the funding for campaign spending and all of the sudden what you say with those dollars becomes much more important than spreading the same phrases all over the place, not to mention it allows those with strong monetary ties (cough*Bush*cough*Kerry) from overpowering others just by flooding the market with their campaign propaganda. Despite all of that how do we, as a country, get people out to speak their minds, to vote for their politicians with the same enthusiasm as they do for their hack-singer-15minutes of fame musicians?

    I apologize. I am writing this more from the heart than the head, and I hope it makes sense. Hell, it is probably derailing this thread. I just know that I am tired of the way America is and I am tried of the fact that I, in this system, feel totally helpless to do anything about it. Much less if I attempt to do anything about it the Patriot Act comes knocking at my door. I am pretty broken about America, and I am bitter. When I hear of others (non-Americans) talking poorly about my country it is salt in my wounds, and I think many Americans share that sentiment. I think many Americans are as dumfounded as me. I feel a bit like Allen Ginsberg had it right all those years ago when he asked: "America when will you be angelic?" It leads me to a question that has arisen in my mind many times: How do we get America to give a damn?
     
  6. Queso macrumors G4

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    #7
    Well put. That feeling of dislocation within your own borders is pretty much what a large number of Americans are feeling right now. If I were you I'd say Sod the Patriot Act and start protesting. Make a noise. It's the only way to get your views noticed.
     
  7. Blue Velvet thread starter Moderator emeritus

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    #8

    Despite forum appearances, I'm not anti-American. Just disappointed, as we all tend to turn on those who who we feel have let us down.

    And of course, we're all acquainted with American customs, politics, technology, products, beliefs, music, literature, arts etc. so it's easy to have a tilt at the new Rome. Doesn't stop me from enjoying American culture either, although when Britney Spears shaves her hair off and that rates more highly in the British news than famine and death elsewhere, I sometimes wonder.

    But overall, if the country in its mythology, holds itself — even with lip-service — and others up to high standards of conduct and law, then expect blow-back when those standards are revealed to be less than exactingly observed.

    The thing is also, is that so much of what happens in your country affects so much of the world with so many international institutions, particularly financial ones, under the covert whip-hand of your own vested industrial interests... the cumulative affect can be so corrosive.

    However, I'm still planning on my eventual trip to Chicago though, not some friendship cruise for disaffected Marxists up the Volga. As it were. ;)
     
  8. faintember macrumors 65816

    faintember

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    #9
    I know, however some posters on MR are fairly quick to start the bashing, and maybe rightly so. Just know that you are not the only one that is disappointed in America. I still defend my country despite my disappointment, much like I defend the south despite it's shortcomings.

    I know that America is two-faced, and we always have been. Look at how the country was founded! I just don't see America the people as America the country; they are two separate, but not equal, entities.

    I hope your Chicago trip goes well. My knowledge of Chicago consists of one night spent sleeping in a parking lot after attending a Smashing Pumpkins concert. I would love to make it out of the USA someday and see other parts of the world, but alas I have yet to get on a plane and I am almost 27!
     
  9. Blue Velvet thread starter Moderator emeritus

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    #10

    The business of America is business. No serious policies or even a national discussion is going to occur without powerful vested interests having a say. When many of your citizens can't even acknowledge that government has a valuable role to play in the cohesiveness of society, then that leaves a policy vacuum for money and religion (same things, really) to wave a stick.

    When ecology pressure groups get labelled as terrorists, yet Haliburton contractors are immune from prosecution from their deeds, then that clearly shows the way things are.

    Never mind, in the greater scheme of things, the Chinese authorities and institutions — oh so benevolent in their compassion and respect for human rights — view the US as a flash in the pan, an aberration of history. And with them essentially providing the manufacturing base for much of the global economy, I wonder who's going to have the last laugh.

    And this is where PNAC and their cronies have squandered what good will there was... instead of strengthening global institutions they've undermined and side-stepped where they could, alienating potential allies in a short-sighted lust for resources and influence.

    So, government for the people, by the people? I think not. At least, here in the UK, they're frank about keeping the House of Lords — riddled with privilege and cronyism — as a counterbalance to parliamentary democracy, ensuring that power, influence and wealth, however it manifests itself, will prevail.
     
  10. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #11
    Thanks for those "10 steps", Blue Velvet. That's definitely an article I'm going to want to keep, so I can whip it out on people who are still in denial.

    As far as you furriners ;) criticizing the U.S., what the heck -- it's justified, is it not? This country has been great (albeit not flawless) at times in its history, but whenever the monied, powerful interests take over, it starts to go down the tubes. One could argue (though I do not [yet] believe) that this country's democracy is sliding into its end stages.

    However, whatever you believe about the U.S., the undeniable fact is that ultimately whatever happens to us is our fault. Who was it that said that people get pretty much the kind of government they deserve? We elected the Chimp-in-Chief. We grumble behind our morning cup of coffee that our legislators are really working for the lobbyists. It's really nobody else's fault but ours. Remember that final episode of The Prisoner, when #6 ripped the mask off of #1 and found out who was really running things?

    Never be afraid to criticize the United States, or even its people for that matter. There are some very good people here, and deep underneath, that includes the majority of us. It's just that quite a few of us are stupid enough to vote for opportunistic sociopaths who want power over the rest of us.
     
  11. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #12
    God I hate that quote!

    Yeah, like our reason for being is to become America, Inc.

    No, the business of America is caring for its citizens. First and foremost.
     
  12. faintember macrumors 65816

    faintember

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    #13
    Then, if it is truly as bleak as you paint it Blue Velvet, it is time to burn it all down and start again.

    So what do we do? We have two people running for the same office, both of which are dirty as crap and backed by lobbyists. Which do we choose? Remember, there is no door number 3, there is no consolation prize, only a pile of horse poop behind door number 1 and a pile of donkey poop behind door number 2. Either way you have a pile of stinky stuff to deal with.

    Also we need to get over the "GWB is the cause of America's downfall" mentality. Yeah yeah, we know he didn't help it any, but lets face it, the issues started long before W was in office. I say this to hopefully stay away from the "republicans are evil/liberals are right" train of thought that permeates many discussions on these forums. Neither group is right because all they do is stick their fingers in their own ears while reading down their own parties laundry list of (lobbyist fueled) rhetoric.

    How do we fix it? Is it too far gone, or is it time for a revolution? Hell, is a revolution even possible? Is 9am too early to start drinking?

    edit: I haven't slept in around 30 hours, so take this last post in stride. On that note, time for bed
     
  13. Scarlet Fever macrumors 68040

    Scarlet Fever

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    #14
    my mate puts it down to "the american political system is fascism you can vote for".

    I hate it that the country with the most power in the world seems to be the most self-obsessed as well. Like when GWB was talking about the VT shootings, he was saying it was felt "in every American classroom and every American community" Yeah, it was, but I felt it too, and i'm on the other side of the planet. If he said every classroom and every community, he would be a bit closer to the truth.

    The only reason idiots like Bush are put in power is because people, through some form of brainwashing, vote for them. Americans, next election, please, please think long and hard about who you vote for. It affects America, but it also has an affect on other countries.
     
  14. Swarmlord macrumors 6502a

    Swarmlord

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    #15
    Hahahaha! Someone that can't write a sentence with the word Bush in it without including a pejorative voting Republican. Now that's rich!
     
  15. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    #16
    Oooooooo-kay.......

    The solution, faintember? First of all, Americans need to be educated more on how they are manipulated via propaganda, so they can make smarter decisions. Both the Democratic party and our education system do a lousy job of that. Then we need to elect real liberals -- Dennis Kucinich types if we're brave enough, or at least Sherrod Brown types if we're not. We also need to get the corporate money out of the election system -- full federal funding. And we need the media's cooperation in practicing responsible journalism, not just reporting every cockamamie BS story that the Republicans concoct about Democratic candidates. To me, this includes networks not accepting advertising (like the Swift Boat ads) that they know may be false.

    I know, that's a tall order. But the alternative is to give up and let things keep falling apart.
     
  16. princealfie macrumors 68030

    princealfie

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    #17
    I kinda already knew about not being in a democracy already... alas the heyday of Stalin must be rolling in his grave :)
     
  17. princealfie macrumors 68030

    princealfie

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    #18
    Bring back Nader! :D
     
  18. ghall macrumors 68040

    ghall

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    #19
    I say this on every other forum that brings this topic up:
    I want to do anything within my power to keep this from happening. I don't want to live in a facist country, and I don't want my kids (if I ever have any) to grow up in one. Maybe if the dumba**es in power actually showed some respect for the country they are supposed to protect, and uphold the laws they are supposed to uphold, wouldn't everyone be a lot happier? Bush and Co claim they are protecting us, but they're doing a pretty piss-poor job.
    Bush needs to be impeached, right now!
    (and it should be Cheney's turn to be shot in the face)
     
  19. Queso macrumors G4

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    #20
    A little bit harsh don't you think? :eek:
     
  20. ghall macrumors 68040

    ghall

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    #21
    Leading America to a facist state, a little bit harsh don't you think?
     
  21. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #22
    changing the funding might have some impact especially if it didn't discriminated other parties which currently totally fall under the table

    also the well known USA attitude "i don't want the other side to win thus i _have_ to vote for the other big party and can't vote for a 3rd party i really like" simply has to change


    that said just look at the stuff the US wants to know from people visiting the country is flat out scary:
    in point of passenger data they want 54 points of data including credit card numbers etc.
    and when when filling out the papers for visa you have to list which charity organizations you donated money to in the last 5 years
     
  22. Queso macrumors G4

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    #23
    You can't seriously be trying to pin this entire thing on Dick Cheney surely. The man's a product of the system. Yeah, he has produced some fantastically blatant abuses of power, but do you honestly think by getting rid of him everything will suddenly be all flowers and rainbows? The entire American political system is the problem, not just the Vice-President being a money-grabbing arsehole.
     
  23. ghall macrumors 68040

    ghall

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    #24
    No, not at all. That idiot couldn't do anything on this scale alone.
     
  24. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #25
    on the other side in fascism it will be always that one person or small group of person with which it stands or falls

    that said i would say what's more damaging is what this current government set as "things you can get away with" for future governments

    sooner or later somebody will come and misuse it again and we can only hope that they are not the brightest
     

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