Fighting for the crucifix

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by DoNoHarm, Nov 4, 2009.

  1. DoNoHarm macrumors 65816

    DoNoHarm

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    #1
  2. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #2
    I personally would fight against having them in classrooms, but without being familiar with Italy's law of the land I can't say much about it legally.
     
  3. Macaddicttt macrumors 6502a

    Macaddicttt

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    There was a similar debate at my school. Well, not really since it was a Catholic school and there was no way they were coming down, although there was a campaign by a significant number of students to get rid of the crucifixes in our classrooms.

    But what I found interesting is we had clergy from other religions on staff, and one time I heard the imam speak about taking the crucifixes down, and he said he'd be the first person to oppose it, despite the crucifixion of Jesus being squarely against his religious beliefs (in Islam, Jesus was a prophet who only pretended to die, but was raised to heaven). His reasoning was that which the crucifix symbolized (sacrificing one's life for the good of all humanity) was such a powerful symbol that it could inspire anyone, regardless of religion.

    I know not everyone would accept that explanation, and I would think it wouldn't hold up in a court of law, but I found it interesting in relation to this.
     
  4. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #4
    I don't know Italian law either, but it seems hard not to draw some kind of comparison to the recent American situation with that cross at the Mojave national park... I have mixed feelings -- tradition is nice. On the other hand, while getting used to saying "Holiday party" or "Winter celebration" or whatever instead of talking about a Christmas party at work was odd, meh, we survived that just fine. Honoring the views of the dead is nice, but honoring the needs of the living is ultimately more important. So I tend to be in favor of trying something new and seeing if it isn't the end of the world.

    Also the day Berlusconi is the defender of freedom and tolerance is the day pigs fly.
     
  5. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

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    What entirely fallacious reasoning.
     
  6. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    I guess by that logic, as long as there's a newsstand nearby, you ought to be allowed to bring a copy of Juggs into the classroom. :D
     
  7. mkrishnan Moderator emeritus

    mkrishnan

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    #7
    In Italy I'm not sure this logic does not indeed prevail. :D
     
  8. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    Well, at least it would have some educational value, which is more than you can say for the crucifix.
     
  9. djellison macrumors 68020

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    #9
    Religion doesn't belong in schools. Schools are for education, not indoctrination.
     
  10. stubeeef macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #10
    http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80760932/

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwYeIr_zzqw

    there are numerous videos of kids singing praises to Obama. When Bush wanted to speak to kids the Dems held meetings in congress about how wrong and bad it was. Now kids in schools are singing about Obama to the tune of Jesus Loves the Little Children of the World.

    So keep plugging about no indoctrination!:rolleyes:
     
  11. djellison macrumors 68020

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    #11
    Sorry - this is a thread about crucifixes in schools. If you wish to have a debate about politics, please start another thread.
     
  12. stubeeef macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #12
    Many seem to believe that Mr Obee just stepped off a crucifix. So that combined with songs to the tune of Jesus Loves Me, kinda makes the "no indoctrination" remake relevant whether or not any one wants to say so. Denials will prove the point.
     
  13. Ttownbeast macrumors 65816

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    #13
    Says a lot for Italy and it's rich Roman ancestry, they I'm sure they are proud of their history of nailing Jews to trees then worshiping one of them for the following 2000 years.
     
  14. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #14
    We all have skeletons in our national closets. It says nothing about Italy at all.
     
  15. stubeeef macrumors 68030

    stubeeef

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    #15
    Probably one of the most offensive posts I have ever read in this forum.
    And to be sarcastically replied to by Skunk, does nothing but amplify the double standard in this forum.
     
  16. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    No sarcasm in my post whatever, I assure you.
     
  17. Iscariot macrumors 68030

    Iscariot

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    #17
    If I worked in a Catholic school, even as an anti-theist, I too would oppose the removal of Catholic symbols, from the cross to the virgin Mary. Religious symbols don't belong in public property, but private institutions should be free to display what they wish.
     
  18. takao macrumors 68040

    takao

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    #18
    looks like the discussion made it across the border and some are checking if a similar case might be made around here... and i agree ... it's bad enough we have mandatory religion classes which are a total waste of time
     
  19. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

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    #19
    Couldn't quite hear everything the kids said in this one, but from what I understand, this was part of a Black History Month presentation. Still not a great idea, because it's too politically charged, but how it justifies crucifixes in schools...?

    Did you actually watch this clip? This isn't "praise to Obama"...this is kids singing about the frustration of watching politicians fight while the health care issue burns. So FAIL.

    We've done this subject already. And it's diversion anyway.
     
  20. PcBgone macrumors 6502

    PcBgone

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    Denying and not studying history makes you doomed to repeat it. Religion definitely does belong in school. Not just Christianity, but Islam, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism, Judaism. If we just lock everything up and throw it in the closet how do we learn the differences between other people and cultures?
     
  21. Jiten macrumors 6502a

    Jiten

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    #21
    If the school is Catholic give them the freedom to follow their values and display their symbols. I don't believe this is for the government to decide, especially for private schools. If parents do not want their children to be indoctrinated then why not just send them off to a non-catholic school instead?


    Well put, I believe that we can learn for all of these religions. Whether it is from their mistakes or the things they did right.
     
  22. CalBoy macrumors 604

    CalBoy

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    #22
    This is not a private school; these are Italy's public schools. Religious symbols do not belong if Italy pretends to be a society with a distinct government and a distinct church. The government cannot improperly promote one religion over any other (or the absence of religion).


    I don't believe anyone was making the cast that we ought to abandon the study of religion in an academic capacity. It was more to say that it ought not be studied in a religious sense (as in with the intent to indoctrinate or advance one religion over another or over no belief system).
     
  23. Don't panic macrumors 603

    Don't panic

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    A catholic school has obviously the right to show the symbols of their religion, but these are public schools so the situation is different. In the US there are no religious symbols in class (at least not where my kids go to school).
     
  24. Ttownbeast macrumors 65816

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    #24
    Just an interpretation summarized in one sentence about that nations history post BC is all. The part about nailing someone to a tree was not my thought though that belonged to Douglas Adams:

    "2,000 years ago one man got nailed to a tree for saying how great it would be if everyone was nice to each other for a change." Douglas Adams, British comic author and radical atheist (1952-2001)

    I added some specifics as to the who done it and who it tended to be done to at the time.

    But of course the part about pride I put in was sarcasm.
     
  25. KingYaba macrumors 68040

    KingYaba

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    #25
    Unless it has something to do with the curriculum I'd keep it out.
     

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