Finally somebody on the left said it:

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Herdfan, Oct 10, 2017.

  1. Herdfan macrumors 6502

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    #1
  2. PracticalMac macrumors 68030

    PracticalMac

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    When libs are losing the message, he thinks libs message of criticize Muslim world be heard?

    Homo persecution is happening next door to him, in US.

    what a moron.
     
  3. poloponies Suspended

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    Yes, all of us on "the left" got together last week and elected a porn star as our spokesman. Feel free to ask him about our views on any topic you choose.
     
  4. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    Waitaminnit.

    We're supposed to stop listening to Hollywood types ... but gay porn stars are okay?

    o_O
     
  5. LIVEFRMNYC macrumors 604

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    I agree with the premise that both the left and right end up supporting those that are questionable.

    For example: Muslim American Linda Sarsour lead the Women's March in Washington. But she has admitted to be in support for Sharia Law.
     
  6. Raid macrumors 68020

    Raid

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    For those of us who don't want to listen to the whole audio file, is there a transcript?
     
  7. NT1440 macrumors G5

    NT1440

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    Methinks she's referring to actual sharia law (the cultural practice), not the xenophobic nonsense pumping from the right that (effectively) rewritten the definition of that term for Americans.

    The more fundamental jewish population use their own "courts" to settle disputes between members of the religion that have no business going before an actual court (neighborly issues, noise complaints, that kind of stuff) in many places in the US. In most of the rest of the world, that is more or less what the term sharia law refers to, a cultural practice of internal dispute resolution based on muslim principles rather than whatever other religion.

    Through more than a decade of concerted effort, American's now beleive the term means "stone the gays" "kill the infidels" etc. It's a ******** culture war waged entirely by the right's echo chamber that has bled into mainstream culture. It's incredibly sad and more of a political weapon than anything.
     
  8. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    Shariah law isn't just the form of judicial dispute resolution like you are making it out to be. Prescription for punishment like stoning is also included and followed via various hadiths.

    You should think of it more as a WWMD (what would Mohammad do) bracelet, except most of the time the punishment for crimes and the crimes themselves wouldn't be acceptable in modern society.
     
  9. Herdfan thread starter macrumors 6502

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    Not sure about that, but the two important quotes are below.

    My question has always been why gays worried about someone who won't bake a cake when many in their party are wanting open borders which will let in those who don't even want them to live.

    I have been waiting for the time when the left began to eat itself and I think it is starting to happen. Too many factions with now too diverse agendas to keep the party unified. Bernie was just the beginning.
     
  10. oneMadRssn macrumors 601

    oneMadRssn

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    I see tension here, sure, but it's not a bad conversation to have. First, the left has only been advocating for immigrants becoming more Americanized and more a part of our US society. I actually have quite a lot of first hand experience with this, as an immigrant. The left has some hopes and dreams for Muslims outside the US - but we don't concern ourselves with that nearly as much as the righties do.

    History has shown that immigrants, when welcomed and assimilated into the US, tend to become pretty good Americans. They adapt their culture to fit ours, and enrich our culture in the process. Usually, this means conservatives become more liberal. Take Judaism for example - first generation Jewish immigrants were told to only marry other Jews. Their kids generally were more likely to be given the freedom to marry whomever. A Jew marrying a Christian means whichever religion the family would practice would likely be of a reform/liberal variety that allows conversions or doesn't much care about family history. The same thing happened with Catholics and Italians and the Irish. This way, extremist cultures are weeded out. The US is uniquely good at this - most other countries don't know how to do this as well as we do.

    From those on the left that I have spoken to about it, they want the same thing for Muslims. The prediction is that if immigrants, Muslim or otherwise, are welcomes into U.S. society, they would become less extremist and eventually totally mix with our society in one or two generations. Most other countries, notably England and France, do it all wrong by segregating their immigrants and being pretty hostile towards them. By driving immigrants to their own closed-off neighborhoods, the immigrants never assimilate and never become part of the society. Yet this is the tactic the Right is pushing for here in the US. We see it doesn't work - why they pushing for it? All the while becoming more extremist themselves.

    So yea, the left is ok with bringing over an old muslim grandfather who holds some pretty terrible views on homosexuality. But we know that his grandkids, if raised in US public schools and given the chance to have American friends, will likely not have those views. So the grandfather and his old ways should be tolerated.
     
  11. Herdfan thread starter macrumors 6502

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    I understand the goal. But I'm not sure it is reality. The old grandfather is not really the problem, but instead the younger generation who are supposed to be being integrated are instead being radicalized in these Mosques. Yes, the numbers are small, but we have recently seen, it only takes one (San Bernadino, Orlando, Las Vegas) to do severe damage.

    Also, Muslims are far more dedicated to their faith than almost any other mainstream religion, with only a few Jewish sects being similar. So the idea that the younger generations are going to abandon it probably not going to happen within a generation or two.

    I do wonder why it is that the left (of course not all, but enough) mocks Christians about their beliefs and faith, yet completely give Muslims a pass on essentially the same thing.
     
  12. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    What pass are we giving Muslims? A Muslim business that discriminates is exactly as wrong as a Christian business that discriminates against gays. A Christian terrorist who kills in the name of his faith is exactly as wrong as a Muslim who kills in the name of his.

    Likewise, the fact that Muslim terrorists exist doesn't mean that all Muslims are terrorists in exactly the same way that a Christian terrorist wouldn't mean that all Christians are terrorists.

    Where is the pass?
     
  13. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #13
    Source for the assertion that Michael Lucas is, in any way imaginable, part of "the left?"

    There are plenty of gay Republicans and Conservatives. Peter Thiel and Milo Yiannopoulos come immediately to mind. There is nothing in Michaels interview or background to suggest he has any affinity whatsover for the Democratic Party or most non-gay progressive causes. Michaels is a Russian-born Jew, who has been vocal in his opposition to Islam in general. Michaels might, possibly, find common cause with some Democrats over the issue of gay marriage. But that's about it.

    Nobody pretends that homophobia in the more conservative parts of the Muslim world is not ugly, and very often brutal in its extreme. But homophobia in parts of the western Christian world was, up until very recently, brutal and repressive..

    There is nothing "inconvenient" about the topic.

    This is nothing more than a pathetic attempt on the part of the right-wing propaganda machine to make the pathetic claim to fame: Look at those nasty Muslims. They are just as bigoted and hate-filled as the "Christians" whose values we keep shoving down America's throat.
     
  14. oneMadRssn macrumors 601

    oneMadRssn

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    The same thing has been said about literally every immigrant group to ever come to the US in large numbers. "These ones are different, it won't be like the last time." Every time they were proven wrong. The prediction most often correct is: tomorrow will be just like today. It's also a super boring prediction, hence it's never discussed in the news.

    Maybe you're right, maybe muslims are somehow different. But probably not. I agree, the young guys born outside the US that are extremist - they're no different than grandpa. But their kids will probably go to public schools, most will stay within the community but will have more open minds and a few will venture out. Their kids' kids will probably venture outside the community more. Like I said, it takes two generations from the first immigrant (like it always has).

    All groups have their violent crazy ones that want to cause a lot of harm. As Las Vegas and Newtown and plenty of others have shown, American white guys do it as often as anyone else on this planet. The issue there, in my opinion, is more about access to implements of violence and not about immigration. I say this as someone who has a personal connection to the Boston bombing.

    It's a double standard, but it's not correct to say we give Muslims as pass. We mock American Christians who have been living in the US their whole lives for many generations, who have the education, opportunity, and freedom to know better. Basically, we hold Americans to a higher standard because America should always strive to be better. We don't give Muslims a pass, we give immigrants a temporary pass while they get their **** together. Their kids, who will be considered full-fledged Americans and equals to the Christians discussed above, will not be given the same pass.
     
  15. Mac'nCheese Suspended

    Mac'nCheese

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    The pass is that what usually happens when someone brings up Muslims immigrating to a "western" nation and someone points out that they are acting like they are in their old country. That is, screaming at women on the streets for dressing how they want to, or attacking people or anything, really....and what do we hear from a lot of people on the left. "You're just a bigot with Islamophobia!" The pass is not screaming out against the injustices to gays and women in the ME while making a big deal out of such lame BS here in the USA.
     
  16. oneMadRssn macrumors 601

    oneMadRssn

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    This is idiotic, and conflates who things: international social policy and domestic immigration policy. No matter how much the establishment republicans want to be, we are not the world police. We can't control what other countries in the ME do other than through diplomacy, and that is usually reserved for more pressing issues like preventing nuclear weapons. I have not seen anyone being given a "pass" for doing that in the US. Once you're in the US, you are expected to act like it.
     
  17. Raid macrumors 68020

    Raid

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    While I do agree that 'the left' is a bit more fragmented than the right, I don't believe that's a bad thing. I'd be more worried about the lock-step sound-bite echoing the right relies on to push their views (seems a bit totalitarian to me). Along that vein this guy doesn't sound too left as he uses the term 'apologists' (which I'm not sure many understand that term). To me it seems that label is applied when anyone uses the fact that all Muslims are not terrorists. Islam, like many religions before it has been turned into a weapon of division, death, and destruction; but that doesn't mean that all it's practitioners would be fooled by those who seek power in the name of faith.

    Who gives 'them' a pass? Most of the ire against religion I've seen here is based primarily off of the teachings they know, a lot of it Christian. Most of the time they mocking is about the 'magical sky fairy' (a.k.a God) that a few of the big religions have in common. You may not see Muslims brought up in those conversations, but I bet you don't see Hinduism and Buddhism brought up often either. It's not a free pass, it's just not top of mind.
     
  18. Mac'nCheese Suspended

    Mac'nCheese

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    I never said anything about controlling other countries. I'm just talking about how people act when discussing what Muslims do and what Christians do. There is a double standard.
     
  19. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    Is that what you get out of these discussions?
     
  20. Populism macrumors regular

    Populism

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    Besides rhetorical questions? Yes.
     
  21. Mac'nCheese Suspended

    Mac'nCheese

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    These discussions? No. This is what I see happening in real life.
     
  22. ForumChick macrumors regular

    ForumChick

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    It’s hypocrisy, not whataboutism. These people lambast Christians for believing in the Bible, yet these Muslims that they’re fond of want them thrown from buildings.
     
  23. citizenzen macrumors 65816

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    What people? Please specify.
     
  24. Herdfan thread starter macrumors 6502

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    It is not a pass. Let me be clear about that.

    But instead, it is more mocking the Christians for what they believe in ways other religions are not. I would post examples, but most are from Christian publications and will be dismissed by those who disagree with me.

    In some ways I understand why they are mocked. Science has taught us over the years that the earth and the people were not created in 7 days. Yet I know some people who will believe Genesis until death. But I do not mock them and call them ignorant. My point is Muslims are not mocked for their beliefs nearly to the extent Christians are.
     
  25. ForumChick macrumors regular

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    #25
    Hillary Clinton
    Barack Obama
    Linda Sarsour
    The list goes on and on…
    Basically, everyone on the left.
     

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