Finally, the beginning of the end of Unions

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Lloydbm41, Feb 21, 2018.

  1. Lloydbm41 Suspended

    Lloydbm41

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    #1
    Unions are a leftover vestigial waste from the 19th century. They are no longer needed and should have been destroyed outright decades ago. With this vote coming up, it will begin the process of significantly degrading the power of Unions by taking away the one thing they need to influence politicians... money!

    The law they are overturning is the one that forces employees to give part of their paychecks over to the Union, even if that person wants nothing to do with the Union. Imagine being taxed to pay for Canada's healthcare, even though you live in the U.S. Makes sense, huh?

    I say good riddance!!! And I am glad that Trump's Supreme Court Judge is getting this opportunity to kill off something that has eroded America's cities (like Detroit and what the Auto Union did to it!)

    Link: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...-fees-fight-gorsuch-seen-as-pivotal-vote.html
     
  2. 0007776 Suspended

    0007776

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    #2
    I bet the guy bringing the case will regret it if he wins and then due to no longer being represented by a union is either fired or has his pay docked more than he is paying into the union.
     
  3. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #3
    Ah yes wonderful. So now the bulk of PAC money just comes from oligarchs, well heeled outfits like the NRA and independently wealthy individuals. Workers of the world, you are free to work wherever you figure you can take the beating.

    Imagine no longer getting a heavily discounted ride on the union's negotiations for pay, benefits and safety on the job. That's the next step when the union bows out. Every man for himself. Don't like the pay? Too bad, the guy tenth in line will settle for it. Don't like the factory closing without a 60-day notice? Tough beans. Don't like climbing into that mixing vat to clean the blades when no one from the line is standing up there making sure the power's off? You can be replaced, yeah even if the reason is that you got whacked by the mixing paddle, so best scramble on down there and get the cleaning job done... anyway the boss means to turn the power off himself and save you the trip.

    Well... we've reinvented the wheel before. Your great grandchild can probably get motivated in the direction of organized labor if things get bad enough again.

    The flip side of your news is the success that graduate students in universities have recently made in managing to organize regarding their teaching and lab supervision labor. Another is the ongoing success of nurses' unions in beating back efforts of hospitals to put patients at risk in favor of profit-enhancing moves like shuffling nurses around to cover gaps regardless of proficiency in assorted medical specialties. Next time your kid breaks a tibia, be happy if the orthopedics nursing station isn't covered by a neonatal specialist and the director of psychiatric nursing...
     
  4. samcraig macrumors P6

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    #4
    Imagine a worse analogy. Oh wait. ;)

    If you work for a union shop, you work for a union shop.
     
  5. webbuzz macrumors 68000

    webbuzz

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    #5
    Does this fall under Fox News propaganda or entertainment?
     
  6. mac_in_tosh macrumors 6502

    mac_in_tosh

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    #6
    OP wants to degrade the power of unions which will leave all the power in the hands of corporations.
     
  7. skunk macrumors G4

    skunk

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    #7
    No representation without taxation. Or have I got that wrong?
     
  8. WarHeadz macrumors 6502a

    WarHeadz

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    #8
    Bet the OP is also a blue collar worker who voted for Trump and thinks Republican's hopes and dreams for the country will benefit him. Trump did say he loves uneducated people.....
     
  9. GermanSuplex macrumors 6502a

    GermanSuplex

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    #9
    Lots of conservative union workers will be upset. Conservative lawmakers have been trying to kill off unions for years, many of their voters have unwittingly helped.
     
  10. Thomas Veil macrumors 68020

    Thomas Veil

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    I say Trump and the Republicans are all the proof we need that unions are still necessary.

    Yeah. Money influencing politics. Imagine! (You are also in favor of converting to public funding of elections, aren’t you?)

    Sure...if you’re a carpenter and you’re paying dues to the Brotherhood of Electrical Workers.
     
  11. Lloydbm41 thread starter Suspended

    Lloydbm41

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    #11
    Nope. Not a blue collar worker and didn’t vote for the idiot Trump.

    I just don’t believe people should be forced to give away a portion of their income to Unions, especially if they aren’t even part of the Union or don’t want to be represented by a Union.

    And Unions breed laziness. Workers know they can’t get fired unless the kill someone, so why bother doing a good job. There is a reason the UAW killed both the town of Detroit and forced corporations to move outside the US for manufacturing.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 21, 2018 ---
    Gee, how does the rest of the country operate without Unions? And leave all the power in the hands of corporations? Apparently you aren’t aware of all the laws enacted by the government to protect workers/children. Unions were created in the 19th century because there was no govt protection. There was no minimum wage. There was no retirement benefits, no Medicare, nothing. Unions served a function then. But no longer.

    Additionally, Union based companies have to charge more for products or services to offset the extra costs associated with paying employee compensation packages, lawyer negotiations, and additional hiring costs. Another reason companies try and avoid Unions. It makes the company less competitive.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 21, 2018 ---
    OMG, how do all the companies in the US survive without Unions. They must all have failed by now and unemployment is at 97%. Oh wait... the sky hasn’t fallen. None of your statements are accurate.

    Let me guess, you defend the Unions because you work for one and if it goes away, you’d actually be held accountable for your performance. Don’t do a good job and yep, you get fired. That’s how it’s supposed to work. This is a capitalist society.
    Unions are the equivalent of communism. Don’t reward those that do the best work.
     
  12. WarHeadz macrumors 6502a

    WarHeadz

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    #12
    Not even then, as long as you're a cop.
     
  13. mac_in_tosh macrumors 6502

    mac_in_tosh

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    #13
    How does it operate? - by having employees live in fear of losing their jobs, doing what used to be 2 or 3 other people's jobs, and by having mass layoffs when corporations are doing well just so the CEO can make more money with stock options. That's how.

    And as for all those laws you talk about, haven't you noticed that the Trump administration is actively doing away with a lot of them?
     
  14. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #14
    That wasn't about laziness on the line. It wasn't even about the unions.

    Complacency in the executive suites and boardrooms breeds a form of laziness. Ask vulture capitalists about that sometime. In response to demand for higher profit margins, the c-suite of an outfit cuts costs and cuts costs and recategorizes to create mere costs out of what was once human capital or research and development investment and one day they come out of a coupon-clipping daydream into the nightmare of being ten years behind the eightball and they're holding convertible bonds that suddenly look like potato bombs because their cashflow's in the toilet and their customers have moved on to the next big thing... and suddenly anyone can buy the stock for a song if they beat the shortsellers finally swooping in to cover their bets and rake in their own profits. Then management finally looks around and realizes wow all we have left here are the fricken patents... even our engineers are working for the competition... the competition to make some other product. Wow. Wha' hoppen here?! Complacency. Brain freeze. Brain drain.

    It happened at Eastman Kodak, not just up in Detroit... it can happen anywhere and it's not about unions. It's about management.

    You can never really get more than what you pay for one way or another. Companies seem to have to learn that over and over again. And so do customers. But workers have always known that. Union workers are not lazy by virtue of union membership. Their job security makes them able to focus on getting the work done, not wondering if the factory will be padlocked tomorrow morning. And it is not true that if they are actually lazy or otherwise deficient in performance that they cannot be fired.

    That there's a procedure involved is perhaps annoying when it would be more fun to frog-march some guy out the door on the spot for coming back from a break 10 minutes late three days in a row, or "for breathing, while not looking and talking more like me..." or for whatever. The worker's a human being and his contract has specific rights --and obligations-- to which the union and the company agreed in last round of negotiations.

    Don't imagine that in right to work shops it's a smooth road from getting hired to getting the gold watch at retirement. Or for that matter from the management side there, don't figure that it's simple to get from making a hire to getting an unsatisfactory employee out the door. Just because a shop is non union doesn't mean there are no laws meant to protect employees from abusive treatment by employers.
     
  15. duffman9000 macrumors 68000

    duffman9000

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    #15
    Is he also getting a new coal mining job? I heard these jobs are cutting edge and can be relied upon to be there a generation from now.
     
  16. JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

    JayMysterio

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    #16
    You know what's one union conservatives never seem to hate?

    Police unions.

    Want that union gone as well? o_O
     
  17. statik13 macrumors regular

    statik13

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    #17
    I get what you're saying as the last union I belonged to was over 20 years ago. However, they definitely still have a place today.

    First, it is true, as a unionized worker you can't opt out of a union. However, management and other opted out employees definitely don't pay into the union benefits, so your point above is isn't completely correct.

    As a general rule, unionized workers tend to have better pay, better health benefits, job security, retirement benefits and potential for advancement; All of which are good things, and strangely enough have a way of trickling into non-union jobs and up to legislation.

    I find that once you take care of the basics like that, people are less lazy instead of more lazy. They tend to look at job satisfaction, new challenges and opportunities for growth.

    Of course, you do still have lazy SOBs, but I see just as many of them in non-union or management roles.


    Lots left to fight for. Doesn't the US have one of the lowest vacation allotments in the western world? How much paternal leave can you take for having a new child? What are the rights for same-sex couples? What if you are injured at work? How many sick days are standard? Most importantly, what's to prevent the government from taking away those standards that unions helped build?

    Yup, and those same job numbers include a lot of people with part time jobs or two jobs just to make ends meet.

    Works that way in unions too. Just takes more paperwork to fire the person, and you're less liable to end up in a court of law for wrongful dismissal.

    Hypothetical question, you have a good worker who's been working for you for 20+ years and they get a new boss who is a complete jerk. The employe's performance drops, and the new boss wants to fire them; What do you do? Let the new boss fire that employee outright, or work to figure out and correct the underlying cause?

    In a union scenario, you don't have an option other than to do the correct thing.
     
  18. LizKat macrumors 601

    LizKat

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    #18
    No I have never belonged to a union nor worked in a union shop per se. I have worked in places where some of the employees were unionized -- computer operators, officer cleaners-- and I have lived in an apartment building where the staff were members of unions. I have also worked as consultant in places where the office cleaning crews and maintenance staff were not unionized.

    The offices I worked in were always well maintained and kept clean. From chatting up the workers though I have to say the non union workers tended to get shoved around more by their supervisors than did the unionized crews. That did not surprise me. The right to work crews scrambled to find their own ways to get "fair" treatment in terms of getting desired vacation or work schedules. I remember a Croatian immigrant who took it upon herself to learn Spanish as a fourth language in order to curry favor with the Hispanic super of her cleaning crew.

    Now that was innovative and enterprising, eh? A small gesture but welcome to a boss whose first language was not English and he sure God didn't speak Croatian. So yeah. If she had worked as part of a union crew she could just have followed the prescribed procedure for requesting work and vacation schedules. Would that have made her "lazy"? No. More fortunate, yes. She could have spent her Spanish learning curve time with her husband instead, and their kids, or she could have gone shopping or learned how to cook Chinese food or whatever the heck she wanted to do with a little free time. But she chose to pay in something extra to make a non-union job maybe a little more secure and maybe a little more tolerable in terms of work and vacation schedules.

    We can call that innovative and enterprising because it was, but it was also an acknowledgment that with a non union job you often have to put in way more than the stated job requirements just to stay even, and you may not have much leverage when it comes to on the job problems with peers or superiors. And who in my generation among programmers and database designers didn't spend 20 extra hours a week getting familiar with the nextgen programming languages and data warehousing packages, etc.? No one said anything about that at the interviews. It was just assumed. So you figured an offered salary was divided by a number of hours that included those learning curve hours, and if you didn't, you were a fool because you were going to have to invest the time or fall behind where the tech was going to be in your next project or next job. If you were lucky you sometimes got a company to pick up the tab for stuff like Oracle or some language package seminars. No one ever said oh and don't worry about the job itself while you're at those seminars. In a union shop all that stuff gets ironed into a contract and everyone knows where everything stands. In a non union shop you can get steamrolled by management or by whomever management happens to favor, unless you're wiling to risk it all and fight back.

    That's just my own experience and I've been retired now for a long time. Who knows how the steamrolling works now when half the planet seems to working by the gig. I don't think it has got any easier to be a non union employee, judging from the experiences of some nextgen relatives in assorted careers from retail fashion to maintenance of big ag equipment.

    Union busting has been at full throttle ever since the Reagan era. So mission is almost surely accomplished by now, no?, save for a few stalwarts managing to keep a few categories of employment more organized than not. As I said, eventually the pendulum swings the other way when the abuse gets too bad. I'd suggest that plans to slash immigration will hasten that day but I don't want to derail this thread.
     
  19. blackfox macrumors 65816

    blackfox

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    #19
    your timeline is a bit off. They were the product of the early and middle 20th Century. They were in response to the Carnagie, Rockefeller (etc) Robber-Baron style of Capitalism. Yes, the Unions became powerful, and then corrupt. Yet, you're pointing fingers at the wrong people imo...
     
  20. Plutonius macrumors 604

    Plutonius

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    #20
    I think you have to differentiate between public sector and private sector unions.
    --- Post Merged, Feb 21, 2018 ---
    All public sector unions should go including teachers, police, and fire fighters.
     
  21. vrDrew macrumors 65816

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    #21
    If we lived in an economic world with truly perfect information, where an employee could reasonably sell her labor at a market-clearing price, then I'd say that collective bargaining and unions were indeed an unnecessary vestige of an earlier, more primitive age.

    But we ain't there yet.

    The fact of the matter is this: There is an incredible asymmetry in the bargaining positions of individual workers and their corporate employers. Large companies have, relatively speaking, massive amounts of both power and information. Individual workers, no matter how skilled and productive, do not. This inevitably leads to situations where corporations exploit this informational asymmetry to offer both wages and working conditions that are far below the market-clearing price.

    I'll agree that in many cases collective bargaining can be an impediment to maximum economic efficiency. That the Shop-Steward and Union Dues impose an economic drag on both earnings and productivity. But without them, employees of large, powerful corporations would walk away short-changed for their contributions to the economic pie. And - big picture - this will inevitably end up decreasing overall productivity.

    American corporations are beginning to suffer the effects of this paradox.
     
  22. JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

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    #22
    That's thing. The real issues conservatives have with unions is purely political & selective. Most unions including public sector ones like Teachers vote mostly democrat and contribute money to those candidates so they need to go. On the other hand many police & fire fighter unions support republican candidates, so they're seen as alright. Only for the unions to realize like the fire fighters did with Scott Walker, how selective that support really is.
     
  23. Fugabutacus macrumors regular

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    #23
    It's going well.
     
  24. Zombie Acorn macrumors 65816

    Zombie Acorn

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    #24
    Never been part of a union, somehow managed to get good pay, good benefits, and great work environment.
     
  25. JayMysterio macrumors 6502a

    JayMysterio

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    #25
    And if that was the norm, there would have never been a need for unions.

    That good pay, benefits, and environment, partly brought to you by a union.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...-Union-36-Ways-Unions-Have-Improved-Your-Life

    So yeah, you may have never been part of one, but you've benefitted from them.
     

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36 February 21, 2018