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Candlelight

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Oct 12, 2011
837
731
New Zealand
http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/apps/65849690/victim-helpless-over-stolen-ipad

A man who tracked his stolen iPad is disappointed police could not obtain a search warrant to recover it.

The Napier tradesman had the iPad and about $7000 of equipment stolen from his van on Monday evening.

Using the Find My iPad feature, an application that uses GPS to track the device, he tracked it to the suburb of Onekawa. Police applied for a search warrant for a specific address but a police spokeswoman said this was declined "on the basis that there wasn't enough evidence".

"While it did "ping" in the [address] vicinity, that is only regarded as a general area and not a specific location. Often with these tracking cases we have found items not in the locations specified by the apps, but nearby," the spokeswoman said.

She could not say whether police took any further action concerning the man's complaint, such as making inquiries of the property's occupants.

The man said he found it hard to believe that the tracking information was insufficient evidence.

"The police hands were tied. They did everything they could. I suppose my point is that if we have this technology what use is it if we can't use it? I mean I understand the principles of a property owner's rights, but if the technology is saying the stolen item is likely to be at a certain address, then I'd have thought that was grounds to get a warrant."

Apple Mac service engineer Alex Jeschkus of madmacman said he had heard of several similar situations.

"It often happens in built-up urban areas. The accuracy of that feature, which uses a GPS locator built into the device, is about 5-10 metres.

"Police just can't bowl into a house unless they are certain it's the right one. Also, the GPS only works on latitude and longitude, not height, so in multi-storey buildings it's quite useless," he said.
 

Rodster

macrumors 68040
May 15, 2007
3,177
6
One solution and it's the one I use is to password protect the device and after 10 attempts force it to do a full erase. Once the device is erased you'll need the password to reactivate the device.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
One solution and it's the one I use is to password protect the device and after 10 attempts force it to do a full erase. Once the device is erased you'll need the password to reactivate the device.

Did you read the post at all?

Nobody cared about the iPhone. What the guy cared for was the $7,000 worth of equipment that disappeared together with his iPhone. So he hoped that he could use "Find my iPhone" as "Find my iPhone and all the other stuff that was stolen together with the phone".

BTW. The title is not quite correct. "Find my iPad" is not enough evidence if it cannot detect which house the iPad is in. So in a block of flats it's not enough evidence. But in a rural area with houses far enough apart it would be sufficient evidence.

"Police just can't bowl into a house unless they are certain it's the right one. Also, the GPS only works on latitude and longitude, not height, so in multi-storey buildings it's quite useless," he said.
GPS actually finds the height as well, but with a bit less precision, and it is harder to read the height from the GPS hardware. All for historical reasons, because GPS was originally intended for ships and boats, and they are usually at zero height. And even ten meters vertically means you can only vaguely guess what floor your iPhone is on.
 
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Night Spring

macrumors G5
Jul 17, 2008
14,694
7,898
BTW. The title is not quite correct. "Find my iPad" is not enough evidence if it cannot detect which house the iPad is in. So in a block of flats it's not enough evidence. But in a rural area with houses far enough apart it would be sufficient evidence.

Yes exactly. Find My iPad / iPhone will often show my iPad as being in the next building when it is actually sitting in my house. If police used that info to search for my iPad, they'd raid the wrong building.
 

Badrottie

Suspended
May 8, 2011
4,317
336
Los Angeles
Apple should get rid of Find my Phone app because every police is not going to get a search warrant anyway so it is useless! :apple:
 

617aircav

Suspended
Jul 2, 2012
3,975
818
Apple should get rid of Find my Phone app because every police is not going to get a search warrant anyway so it is useless! :apple:


It was not designed for that. If I left my device in the office for instance it would help me locate it.
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
Apple should get rid of Find my Phone app because every police is not going to get a search warrant anyway so it is useless! :apple:

Nonsense. Read my previous post carefully.

You can also go to the neighbourhood where the iPhone is with a camera, observe who is leaving their homes, and when the thief leaves their home with the iPhone and drives away, Find my iPhone will tell you, you can film the car, and get the evidence needed.
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
I think its a bit poor. If the stolen device showed as No.22, it may be on 20, or 24. Its not like a raid, ask 22 that you wish to search for it, then 20 and 24. A search warrant wont be an issue for an honest person who is advised it may be here or next door. The job for Police is to locate stolen goods, this functions gives them 99% accuracy, that is good enough. Its strange when the Police know its in 20,22,24, but cannot do anything. Now what of it was a $200,000 car? They would KNOW its in one of the 3 garages, do you expect they will walk away?

The Police arrived at my home, said a stolen iPhone has been traced down to one of these three houses, and asked if they can search, I'd say go for it. If they had a search warrant, I'd be fine with that as I am not being accused, I am being searched, and as I didn't steal it, no problem
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
I think its a bit poor. If the stolen device showed as No.22, it may be on 20, or 24. Its not like a raid, ask 22 that you wish to search for it, then 20 and 24. A search warrant wont be an issue for an honest person who is advised it may be here or next door. The job for Police is to locate stolen goods, this functions gives them 99% accuracy, that is good enough. Its strange when the Police know its in 20,22,24, but cannot do anything. Now what of it was a $200,000 car? They would KNOW its in one of the 3 garages, do you expect they will walk away?

The Police arrived at my home, said a stolen iPhone has been traced down to one of these three houses, and asked if they can search, I'd say go for it. If they had a search warrant, I'd be fine with that as I am not being accused, I am being searched, and as I didn't steal it, no problem

Having looked at the two of three neighbouring houses still doesn't allow the police to get a warrant for the third house. One of the neighbours might have just hidden the iPhone well.

The other problem is that _you_ might be naïve enough to let the police search your home without a warrant, I surely wouldn't.
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
Having looked at the two of three neighbouring houses still doesn't allow the police to get a warrant for the third house. One of the neighbours might have just hidden the iPhone well.

The other problem is that _you_ might be naïve enough to let the police search your home without a warrant, I surely wouldn't.

I am not naive, nothing to hide. Your paranoid, if you do not trust the Police who are there to serve and protect the public.

I dunno the law, does a search warrant require the Police to be 100% certain, or highly evidenced?

Go back to my $200,000 car example, the Police KNOW that its in one of three garages, if they cannot have the ability to check them, thats lunacy. I guarantee if that was your car, you'd be pissed.
 

Davos83

macrumors newbie
Feb 8, 2015
2
0
GPS actually finds the height as well, but with a bit less precision, and it is harder to read the height from the GPS hardware. All for historical reasons, because GPS was originally intended for ships and boats, and they are usually at zero height. And even ten meters vertically means you can only vaguely guess what floor your iPhone is on.

The purpose of GPS has always been to determine 3D-position on earth (horizontal coordinates (x,y) and height (z)).
The reason why the height coordinate is calculated with less accuracy has to do with satellite geometry AND a simplified/estimated geoid model. To determine an accurate position we need good satellite geometry (large angles between the satellites and the receiver). The vertical angles that are used to determine the height coordinate happens to be worse than the horizontal angles used to determine the horizontal coordinates.
 

laudern

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2011
887
734
I think its a bit poor. If the stolen device showed as No.22, it may be on 20, or 24. Its not like a raid, ask 22 that you wish to search for it, then 20 and 24. A search warrant wont be an issue for an honest person who is advised it may be here or next door. The job for Police is to locate stolen goods, this functions gives them 99% accuracy, that is good enough. Its strange when the Police know its in 20,22,24, but cannot do anything. Now what of it was a $200,000 car? They would KNOW its in one of the 3 garages, do you expect they will walk away?

The Police arrived at my home, said a stolen iPhone has been traced down to one of these three houses, and asked if they can search, I'd say go for it. If they had a search warrant, I'd be fine with that as I am not being accused, I am being searched, and as I didn't steal it, no problem

So you would be fine with a number of policemen going in and trashing your house in search of someones I device that you know isn't in your house? That makes perfect sense.
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
So you would be fine with a number of policemen going in and trashing your house in search of someones I device that you know isn't in your house? That makes perfect sense.

Did you get out of bed the wrong side today, or are you always like that?

Said policeman roll up, with three houses to check, one of which has a stolen laptop. First mistake, it wont be a "number" of policemen, which I assume is 4+, it will be 2.

Second mistake, they wont trash my home. They will ask to come in, and why, I will say no worries.

Third mistake, the fact that I know it isn't in my home, how much weight does that carry? I know that, sweet. They don't.

As to sense, yes, I can see where that is or isn't thanks.
 

laudern

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2011
887
734
Did you get out of bed the wrong side today, or are you always like that?

Said policeman roll up, with three houses to check, one of which has a stolen laptop. First mistake, it wont be a "number" of policemen, which I assume is 4+, it will be 2.

Second mistake, they wont trash my home. They will ask to come in, and why, I will say no worries.

Third mistake, the fact that I know it isn't in my home, how much weight does that carry? I know that, sweet. They don't.

As to sense, yes, I can see where that is or isn't thanks.

Gee wiz. I want to live in your world where these fairytale police delicately look under pillows and cushions and take the time to put things back in place.

In the real world a warrant is treated seriously where every nook is searched and not just half heartily skimmed over.

If they are going in to your place they will search high and low and go through absolutely everything.

Courts don't hand out warrants for "a casual look around"
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
Gee wiz. I want to live in your world where these fairytale police delicately look under pillows and cushions and take the time to put things back in place.

In the real world a warrant is treated seriously where every nook is searched and not just half heartily skimmed over.

If they are going in to your place they will search high and low and go through absolutely everything.

Courts don't hand out warrants for "a casual look around"

Fairy tale police? Casual look around under pillows and cushions?

I can see that your attitudinal comments are to heighten your reply, but thats a fail. I live in the real world, clearly a bit more stable that your real world, wherever that may be.

Don't bother replying.
 

takeshi74

macrumors 601
Feb 9, 2011
4,974
68
I am not naive, nothing to hide. Your paranoid, if you do not trust the Police who are there to serve and protect the public.
This was a tired old argument long before this thread was ever started. It is naive to trust to the police and to follow the "nothing to hide" mindset -- at least it is in the US. Things may be different down there.
 
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dc52nv

macrumors member
Apr 5, 2011
60
0
Cops in the US will tear your hard wood floors up to find what they're looking for. I've seen reports of them tearing through walls. No way I'd let them perform a search without a search warrant.
 

bkaus

macrumors 6502
Sep 26, 2014
316
366
Perhaps we need "explode my iPhone". Police sit out front of the block. Trigger the device. Listen for noise and look for smoke. Or less spectacular, a remote control dye pack. Look for the blue crooks.
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
Cops in the US will tear your hard wood floors up to find what they're looking for. I've seen reports of them tearing through walls. No way I'd let them perform a search without a search warrant.

Thats a pity, which explains the tones of these replies. Its not like that here. The cops here will search everywhere, and while the home wont be identical to how it was, it wnt be trashed as described here. If however, it was a weapon used in a violent crime, drugs, and the occupants are known to the police, that will vary. If my house is one of three that will have the stolen device, and I have no police record, they will search anywhere and everywhere, but common sense prevails.
 

617aircav

Suspended
Jul 2, 2012
3,975
818
Nope I won't let police into my house to search for a phone that I know is not there. Why would a strangers phone be in my house?
 

laudern

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2011
887
734
Thats a pity, which explains the tones of these replies. Its not like that here. The cops here will search everywhere, and while the home wont be identical to how it was, it wnt be trashed as described here. If however, it was a weapon used in a violent crime, drugs, and the occupants are known to the police, that will vary. If my house is one of three that will have the stolen device, and I have no police record, they will search anywhere and everywhere, but common sense prevails.

What if your house is the last house of the three houses they are searching? They have already performed their light "flutter search" in the first 2 houses and found nothing. By your logic, your house MUST be the location and when warrants are handed out, results are expected.

The police would look pretty stupid raiding (checking the cookie jars - according to you)3 houses with nothing found but the phone still pinging in the same spot.
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
What if your house is the last house of the three houses they are searching? They have already performed their light "flutter search" in the first 2 houses and found nothing. By your logic, your house MUST be the location and when warrants are handed out, results are expected.

The police would look pretty stupid raiding (checking the cookie jars - according to you)3 houses with nothing found but the phone still pinging in the same spot.

Whats up with you? Do you really think putting words in my mouth will give you the upper hand in what is clearly a need to be the man, be correct?? LOL.

Light flutter search, checking the cookie jars according to me.???

Stick to your guns, as you are always right, cos you need to be it seems. But making up comments and stating that they are mine, is quite childish. Explains it all, try to have a nice day

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Nope I won't let police into my house to search for a phone that I know is not there. Why would a strangers phone be in my house?

Ok, they have a warrant, then what?

Just tell them its not there, in fact tell any crim to tell the judge, its not there for whatever crime they are alleged, so the case will be dismissed.

Its clear that in some countries the police/legal system cannot be trusted, well thats not the case everywhere
 

laudern

macrumors 6502a
Jan 5, 2011
887
734
Whats up with you? Do you really think putting words in my mouth will give you the upper hand in what is clearly a need to be the man, be correct?? LOL.

Light flutter search, checking the cookie jars according to me.???

Stick to your guns, as you are always right, cos you need to be it seems. But making up comments and stating that they are mine, is quite childish. Explains it all, try to have a nice day

----------



Ok, they have a warrant, then what?

Just tell them its not there, in fact tell any crim to tell the judge, its not there for whatever crime they are alleged, so the case will be dismissed.

Its clear that in some countries the police/legal system cannot be trusted, well thats not the case everywhere

You still didn't answer my question. What if your house was the last house to be searched? What would happen? I'm interested in your view of the way the world works.
 

tdale

macrumors 65816
Aug 11, 2013
1,293
77
Christchurch, N.Z.
You still didn't answer my question. What if your house was the last house to be searched? What would happen? I'm interested in your view of the way the world works.

No your not, your just being a d**k. Ive taken this discussion as a discussion, clarified where need be and all you do is w**k on with making up words to support your must win case. So, based on your "discussion" its a waste of both our time
 
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