Firewire 2 Next?

MacRumors

macrumors bot
Original poster
Apr 12, 2001
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Firewire 2 or 1394b's design standard was approved in March 2002. Firewire 2 promises to bring longer device-to-device distances, faster speeds (800MBits/s at the low end), full duplex communication, lower costs and backward compatibility with the original Firewire.

Newsfactor reported in May that Firewire 2 would not likely make it into the most recent PowerMacs.

The most compelling evidence of Apple's work on Firewire 2 comes from an internal Apple PDF which outlined an Apple PowerMac design with Firewire 2 ports included. This PDF was accidently left exposed on Apple's website, and was quickly removed from their site.

Future PowerMac upgrades are not expected until after MacWorld SanFrancisco, but it appears that Firewire 2 is due, and reported to be pending the next revision based on the current whisperings.
 

bobindashadows

macrumors 6502
Mar 16, 2002
419
0
I've been waiting...

This is great, I've been looking out for FW2 in the power macs since that PDF leaked out.. it makes sense that it didn't get put in very quickly after the spec was approved, hopefully we'll see it real soon.

First post?
 

medea

macrumors 68030
Aug 4, 2002
2,517
1
Madison, Wi
well it's too bad I can't upgrade the firewire port in my iMac, but it's not really neccesary for me either because the speed of firewire is fine for me. Will Firewire2 be backwards compatible like USB2 is (edit: forgive me I missed that in the article at first.)
 

Goblin2099

macrumors member
Jul 18, 2002
65
0
New York City
I wonder what this will mean for the iPod. Rumors have it that the iPod's up for some change at MWSF, I remember reading (although I think it was MOSR) that a major revision is possible. It would seem a shame for a new iPod model to have old firewire if firewire 2 is going to be released shortly thereafter, but it doesn't seem likely that firewire 2 would be debuted on peripherals before computers.

<cross fingers>I supposed Steve could throw in a teaser of "Oh, and they're GigaWire ready" </cross fingers>
 

locovaca

macrumors 6502
May 14, 2002
251
323
Iowa
Originally posted by Goblin2099
I wonder what this will mean for the iPod. Rumors have it that the iPod's up for some change at MWSF, I remember reading (although I think it was MOSR) that a major revision is possible. It would seem a shame for a new iPod model to have old firewire if firewire 2 is going to be released shortly thereafter, but it doesn't seem likely that firewire 2 would be debuted on peripherals before computers.

<cross fingers>I supposed Steve could throw in a teaser of "Oh, and they're GigaWire ready" </cross fingers>
Not to burst your bubble, but it wouldn't mean much for an ipod. ipods do not have very fast hard drives, and firewire itself doesn't nearly get saturated with the ipods we have today (they spin, at most at 4200 rpm, and I bet it's slower than that, but I haven't cracked one open to see. By comparison, an IBM 20 gb notebook drive generally tops out at about 20mb/sec sustained, which is half of what firewire can offer). This would be exciting for DV (you can now have higher resolutions download in realtime) and mac to mac firewire networking. Those would be blazing file transfers!
 

Steradian

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2002
393
0
San Jose
awesome

This is great news, If this rumor turn's out to be true it will have made my week :)
this is incredibly fast, and beat the pants off USB 2.0


PowerBook G4 1ghz
 

wrylachlan

macrumors regular
Jan 25, 2002
102
0
what do we think the cost will be?

As compared to ethernet what is the cost per Gps throughput? I know that Gigabit ethernet cards are pricey.

Anyone have any ideas how much the enabling chips are going to cost? For that matter what do firewire 1 chips cost?
 

arn

macrumors god
Staff member
Apr 9, 2001
15,241
3,360
Re: awesome

Originally posted by Steradian
This is great news, If this rumor turn's out to be true it will have made my week :)
this is incredibly fast, and beat the pants off USB 2.0
Well, the Firewire 2 specs are public... and will be faster than USB 2.0. Starting at speeds of 800Mbits/s.

arn
 

Steradian

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2002
393
0
San Jose
well

Hey arn i was under the impression that things that are released to the public like spec's, don't always turn out to be true, (as i am sure you know this is macrumors) so why are you being overly critical?

And

Sparklytone, um USB 2 has the potenial to be faster than 1394(b), but occurs w/ a heavy strain on the processor. I understand that you were Exaggerating, but in the "real world" USB 2.0 is FASTER.



PowerBook G4 1ghz
 

p604

macrumors newbie
Dec 4, 2002
2
0
panasonic

panasonic has a firewire hd deck in the works that will use firewire 2 as per an apple and panasonic agreement. when the final bugs are ironed out, firewire 2 will become de facto.
 

strider42

macrumors 65816
Feb 1, 2002
1,460
6
Re: well

Originally posted by Steradian

Sparklytone, um USB 2 has the potenial to be faster than 1394(b), but occurs w/ a heavy strain on the processor. I understand that you were Exaggerating, but in the "real world" USB 2.0 is FASTER.



PowerBook G4 1ghz
USB 2 is only slightly faster than firewire right now. (480 mbps vs. 400 mbps), so firewire 2 will be roughly double the speed of of USB 2. and of course those theorectical numbers don't mean much, and that firewire is often times faster than USB 2 right now, despite the slightly slower theorectical max. So no, USB 2 is not faster than 1394b, not by any stretch of the imgination. I suppose they could try to ramp up the speed of USB 2 even higher, but I've never heard of any specs saying it could, and as you point out, the processor strain would only increase.
 

Steradian

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2002
393
0
San Jose
To clear some things up

My bad I should have been more specific in my statement. I should have said that in genreral a firewire connection is faster than USB 2.0 in most devices. But it is possible that thier is too much uncertainty in the screensavers benchmark test in weither or not the systems they were test had OS's w/ that could take advantige of a faster connection, or what the CPU clock was (in the screensavers test they used a 1.3 or 1.4 ghz pentium system), or what type of computer they had, etc. To my best understand USB 2.0 is currently a little faster in projected output than firewire. I understand that some systems have different reactions to different connections. Ie, the Ipod for windows transfers files over much slower than it's mac counterpart but they still have the same type of connector.

p.s. I am sorry if i make no sense i have had very little sleep in the last 48 hours.

PowerBook G4 1ghz
 

strider42

macrumors 65816
Feb 1, 2002
1,460
6
Re: To clear some things up

Originally posted by Steradian
My bad I should have been more specific in my statement. I should have said that in genreral a firewire connection is faster than USB 2.0 in most devices. But it is possible that thier is too much uncertainty in the screensavers benchmark test in weither or not the systems they were test had OS's w/ that could take advantige of a faster connection, or what the CPU clock was (in the screensavers test they used a 1.3 or 1.4 ghz pentium system), or what type of computer they had, etc. To my best understand USB 2.0 is currently a little faster in projected output than firewire. I understand that some systems have different reactions to different connections. Ie, the Ipod for windows transfers files over much slower than it's mac counterpart but they still have the same type of connector.

p.s. I am sorry if i make no sense i have had very little sleep in the last 48 hours.

PowerBook G4 1ghz
You are right that USB 2 has a slightly faster potential throughput than firewire at the moment. USB 2 maxes out at 480 mbps. processor speed won't make that any faster. Firewire is currently at 400 mbps. firewire 2 will be at least 800 mpbs, while also offering distinct advantages over USB 2 (same as firewire does right at the moment, despite its slightly lower theorectical max, which is why firewire will be around for a while).

So USb 2 will never be as fast as 1394b (firewire 2) it will only be half as fast in potential speed.
 

arn

macrumors god
Staff member
Apr 9, 2001
15,241
3,360
Re: well

Originally posted by Steradian
Hey arn i was under the impression that things that are released to the public like spec's, don't always turn out to be true, (as i am sure you know this is macrumors) so why are you being overly critical?
Am I being critical? I'm not sure which part you are refering to... but published specs usually don't change much. Besides, there are Firewire 2 devices starting to become available... so the standard is pretty set.

arn
 

Steradian

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2002
393
0
San Jose
1394(b) and firewire 2 I don't think are the same.
Strider, your right it will not make it faster, i understand that you cannot change the speed of a connection w/ a faster processor, but w/ a fast processor it put's less of a strain on the processor so it can accomplish the task faster that the currrent firewire.

Ok arn i am just being stupid i need some caffine :)
(a few months (april) ago i saw some projected firewire 2 specs in a pdf file, and they had said that the connection speed would top out at 1.8 gbs, i think i still have the pdf lemme look for it tonight, )



PowerBook G4 1 ghz
 

Natron

macrumors member
Oct 26, 2002
96
0
Well, it makes since for Panasonic to be making some kind of HD deck and for other devices to be going Firewire 2 (iPod). Steve has to have something he can use to show off Firewire 2 ;)

-Natron
 

arn

macrumors god
Staff member
Apr 9, 2001
15,241
3,360
Originally posted by Steradian

Ok arn i am just being stupid i need some caffine :)
(a few months (april) ago i saw some projected firewire 2 specs in a pdf file, and they had said that the connection speed would top out at 1.8 gbs, i think i still have the pdf lemme look for it tonight, )
800MB/sec and 1600MB/sec in the intial implementation, but upward limits in the spec us up to 3.2Gbit/sec.

See http://www.1394ta.org/Technology/About/1394b.htm

there's a PDF and links to articles there.

arn
 

Skip

macrumors newbie
Apr 8, 2002
8
0
California
how do we think these devices will be used

I keep hearing about devices like Mitsubishis high end tv's having Firewire ports on them but I never have heard the marketing behind that. What does Mitsubishi say you can do with a Firewire port on their tv? Or a firewire port on a vcr, dvd player, audio receiver. Obviously if they are taking the time to put these pieces into place has anyone heard how it can be used or are they just there waiting for a solution from Apple or some other computer company that will take advantage of this technology?
 

Steradian

macrumors 6502
Dec 3, 2002
393
0
San Jose
ok

Thanks for the link, i think your going to be right in you assumption that these spec are as real as steve.




PowerBook G4 1ghz
 

arn

macrumors god
Staff member
Apr 9, 2001
15,241
3,360
Re: how do we think these devices will be used

Originally posted by Skip
I keep hearing about devices like Mitsubishis high end tv's having Firewire ports on them but I never have heard the marketing behind that. What does Mitsubishi say you can do with a Firewire port on their tv? Or a firewire port on a vcr, dvd player, audio receiver. Obviously if they are taking the time to put these pieces into place has anyone heard how it can be used or are they just there waiting for a solution from Apple or some other computer company that will take advantage of this technology?
one of the proposed uses of firewire was the wiring of home networking.

http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20020506S0041

Rather than waiting for the sometimes hesitant moves of corporations, Snider said the IEEE 1394 Trade Association hopes to pull together new home network designs that take a full advantage of the technology's capabilities. "Our first milestone of the network working group, for instance, will be that we can start giving some guidance to companies interested in building a home network," he said.

While multiple wired and wireless schemes are vying to become the technology of choice for home networking, the association's tasks include "reviewing the use of Internet Protocols over 1394, and investigating how best to co-exist with other standards such as Ethernet," said Michael Teener, plumbing architect at Apple Computer. An originator of FireWire while at Apple in the late 1980s, Teener is chairman of the trade association's new network working group.
Combine this, along with IP over firewire, and Rendezvous... and things seem to be coming togther...

arn
 

DaveGee

macrumors 6502a
Jul 25, 2001
677
2
Originally posted by Steradian
1394(b) and firewire 2 I don't think are the same.
Okay... lets try this.


================
FireWire aka 1394a:
-------------------------
400Mb/s over 'standard fw' cable up to 4.5 meters long.

================
FireWire2 aka GigaWire? aka 1394b:
-------------------------
100/200/400/800/1600/3200Mb/s over 'standard fw' cable up to 4.5 meters long.

*AND*

100Mb/s over standard unshielded twisted pair (aka ethernet) up to 100 meters long.

*AND*

100/200/400/800/1600Mb/s over POF (plastic fiber) up to 100 meters long.

*AND*

100/200/400/800/1600/3200Mb/s over GOF (glass fiber) up to 100 meters long.
================

3200 is considered 'in the future' but everything I've read (quite a bit over the past two years) all point to 1600Mb/s (aka 1.6G/b or 'GigaWire') being included in the initial rollout. Well the initial APPLE rollout.

Back in the spring TI (the chip maker) was having issues hitting 1.6Gbs 1394b but on or about that time news also hit the street that Apple purchased Zayante (founded by ex-apple guy who INVENTED FW to begin with) oh and Zayante just happens to be in the FW chip market too. (not BIG like TI - but pretty much exclusive FW oriented).

Everything looks good from where I sit (so long as Apple/Zayante can do (has done?) 1.6Gb/s).

Dave
 

joed

macrumors regular
Feb 15, 2002
145
0
Budapest, Hungary
Earlier this year the 1394ta's web site had that the first system's will incorporate 1394b at the end this year, that has now been revised to early next year.

I would imaging that we'll see 1394b in the XServe first, which is due early next year. Then we'll see it implemented in subsequent machines (Powermac, powerbook, iMac, iBook, iPod, eMac etc - possibly in that order).

Already, a company has announced 1394b compatible cables. And yes, 1394b is backwards compatible with a plug adaptor.

Also, 1394b is cheaper than 1394a. So hopefully we'll see it implemented in more products (ie non Apple).
 
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