Florida's Zeal Against Castro Is Losing Heat

CubaTBird

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Original poster
Apr 18, 2004
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miloblithe

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Nov 14, 2003
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Washington, DC
Our relationship with Cuba is definitely odd. I live right next door to the Cuban 'embassies' (Swiss Embassy, Cuban interests section, or something like that) in Washington, DC. The protesters are out there (they neatly line up on opposite sides of the street to chant at each other) less and less it seems. And when they are there it never seems to be more than 20 people to each side.

Castro is near to the grave, and Raul is no succession plan. He's only a few years younger and could conceivably go first anyway. I'm glad to hear (again) that many Cuban-Americans are reconsidering their support of the Republican party. It will be interesting to see what happens when the issues really come to a head in a few years when the Castros are dead. It seems to me that we should expand our engagements with Cuba to build for that day.
 

aloofman

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Dec 17, 2002
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I look forward to the day when our foreign policy on Cuba isn't being hijacked by a bunch of anti-Castro nuts who have their heads in the sand.
 

mkrishnan

Moderator emeritus
Jan 9, 2004
29,641
12
Grand Rapids, MI, USA
aloofman said:
I look forward to the day when our foreign policy on Cuba isn't being hijacked by a bunch of anti-Castro nuts who have their heads in the sand.
Yeah, to be honest, what is the point of America's policy against Cuba? Who in the world is it helping? It's a remnant of the Cold War. It has failed miserably to push Cuba into democracy or to make its leadership come to the international table. We need a policy that has as its primary goals improving the ability of Cuban Americans to have community with their family over there, and improving the well-being of the Cuban people.
 

CubaTBird

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Original poster
Apr 18, 2004
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so once castro and his brother are long and gone.. what would you say would happen to cuba? i say it goes under the supervision of bush.. i could be way off... or perhaps the cuban people will set up a coup in that they control the govt temp? though corruption would end up occurring... :(
 

xsedrinam

macrumors 601
Oct 21, 2004
4,348
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CubaTBird said:
so once castro and his brother are long and gone.. what would you say would happen to cuba? i say it goes under the supervision of bush.. i could be way off... or perhaps the cuban people will set up a coup in that they control the govt temp? though corruption would end up occurring... :(
I only hope it [Cuba] doesn't move to Venezuela and Ecuador :eek:
X
 

Xtremehkr

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Jul 4, 2004
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It seems that the ideologically based sanctions of Cuba have done more harm that Castro has himself. Denying major markets to any country is going to harm them. Should a country that represents freedom be imposing its will upon others when it comes to how the country is run? especially by a country that has upheld so many Dictators it has helped to install and support.
 

faustfire

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Jul 17, 2002
560
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California
Xtremehkr said:
It seems that the ideologically based sanctions of Cuba have done more harm that Castro has himself. Denying major markets to any country is going to harm them. Should a country that represents freedom be imposing its will upon others when it comes to how the country is run? especially by a country that has upheld so many Dictators it has helped to install and support.
Give this man a cigar :)
 

ewinemiller

macrumors 6502
Aug 29, 2001
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west of Philly
Not really Florida

I wouldn't say Florida's zeal. Perhaps Miami and mostly just the Cuban community, Miami only because there is a large Cuban community. The rest of Florida really doesn't care. Castro in no way impacts our daily life or presents any kind of threat.

I think it's silly that we keep up the embargo stuff. You want Casto and the communist goverment to fall, do it the same way the USSR fell. Drop all the embargo's, plant a McDonald's in downtown Havana, have tourists sell Levi's on the black market, start the 24 hour baywatch channel broadcasting into Cuba, use cultural assimilation. Soon enough the people will want change, the berlin wall, ehem, Castro will fall and we'll have a nice friendly neighbor to the south.
 

Ugg

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Apr 7, 2003
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Penryn
Xtremehkr said:
It seems that the ideologically based sanctions of Cuba have done more harm that Castro has himself. Denying major markets to any country is going to harm them. Should a country that represents freedom be imposing its will upon others when it comes to how the country is run? especially by a country that has upheld so many Dictators it has helped to install and support.
All the White House has to do is look towards China to see that market forces can effect more change than all the armies in the world. Not that China is the be all and end all of freedom and democracy, but....

Cuba and Israel, two of America's biggest albatrosses.
 

xsedrinam

macrumors 601
Oct 21, 2004
4,348
1
ewinemiller said:
I wouldn't say Florida's zeal. Perhaps Miami and mostly just the Cuban community, Miami only because there is a large Cuban community. The rest of Florida really doesn't care. Castro in no way impacts our daily life or presents any kind of threat.

I think it's silly that we keep up the embargo stuff. You want Casto and the communist goverment to fall, do it the same way the USSR fell. Drop all the embargo's, plant a McDonald's in downtown Havana, have tourists sell Levi's on the black market, start the 24 hour baywatch channel broadcasting into Cuba, use cultural assimilation. Soon enough the people will want change, the berlin wall, ehem, Castro will fall and we'll have a nice friendly neighbor to the south.
Classic Capitalism applied must assume much, and I don't believe it's that simple. It assumes there are "open countries" (open to tourism, technology, exchange, etc.,) I would site Venezuela as an example of a country (argueably 2/3rd's world) which has done nearly a 180° (open to closed) under their present regime. Fidel is Chavez's role model and military muscle has had to be tapped to keep his agenda propped up. Ecuador's weak leadership and lack of integrity in it leaders has brought about the same kind of vacuum upon which dictators and dictatorships prey. Within this kind of volatile political climate, it would be rather naive to assume that planting another McDonalds would guarantee that capitalism would take root and thrive in any indigenous sense.
X
 

Xtremehkr

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Jul 4, 2004
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Ugg said:
All the White House has to do is look towards China to see that market forces can effect more change than all the armies in the world. Not that China is the be all and end all of freedom and democracy, but....

Cuba and Israel, two of America's biggest albatrosses.
I have a feeling that this will change in time. All things change in time, and you have to remember that the image we get over here of foreign countries is skewed sometimes to support our own politics. A lot of the time actually, if you hadn't been out of the country you could get the impression that the rest of the world is a cesspool.

Every year the US publishes a report outlining abuses in other countries that is highly touted. China does the same, though it doesn't seem like we are interested in the problems others identify us as having.
 

xsedrinam

macrumors 601
Oct 21, 2004
4,348
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AhmedFaisal said:
Why? You want Batista back? And as for Venezuela and Ecuador, all I can say is this, things got nasty with Chavez when he decided that Venezuelans should be benefiting more from their own Oil and not blow it up US corporations behinds for an Apple and an Egg. That's when suddenly the US got involved and started supporting anti-Chavez protesters and sent CIA agents down there to support the coup against him. The Ecuadorians are demanding a move in the same direction and rightfully so. So if Cuba after Castro can transform into a democracy with an independent leadership and not sell out to US interests, I will cheer for them.
Regards,

Ahmed
I don't know how any informed person/position could argue that Venezuela has benefitted from a regime which confiscated and shut down the movement of oil. Venezuela, a leading oil producer, has had to import its oil, of all things :eek: Protestors against the regime were arrested on charges of "traición" for displaying the Venezuelan flag in their rallies. Bringing a country to across the board poverty in the name of socialistic equality is so totally naive, 60's paradigm, mad at the world capola, I don't see how anyone could buy in to that, figuratively ;)
X
 

Ugg

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Apr 7, 2003
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Penryn
xsedrinam said:
I don't know how any informed person/position could argue that Venezuela has benefitted from a regime which confiscated and shut down the movement of oil. Venezuela, a leading oil producer, has had to import its oil, of all things :eek: Protestors against the regime were arrested on charges of "traición" for displaying the Venezuelan flag in their rallies. Bringing a country to across the board poverty in the name of socialistic equality is so totally naive, 60's paradigm, mad at the world capola, I don't see how anyone could buy in to that, figuratively ;)
X
You're ignoring what came before Chavez. It's a matter of the pendulum swinging as it always does. There would be no need for people like Chavez or Castro if they hadn't been preceded by totalitarian and perhaps fascist regimes.
 

xsedrinam

macrumors 601
Oct 21, 2004
4,348
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Ugg said:
You're ignoring what came before Chavez. It's a matter of the pendulum swinging as it always does. There would be no need for people like Chavez or Castro if they hadn't been preceded by totalitarian and perhaps fascist regimes.
I'll agree that there's always context which precedes or follows and I don't wish to ignore that, though time nor space would permit. But, I also think it's a fair statement that dictatorships have tended to follow and or prey upon vacuums in governments, particularly in this case. I don't agree that Venezuela's immediate past was due to totalitarianism but rather, corruption and incompetence, which open the discussion to even more nuances. I wouldn't be exaggerating to say that I've heard this comment on the street, in taxis, over coffee, etc., at least 100 times in South Am. "No nos conviene la democracia. Danos un dictador de bondad y verás".[Democracy doesn't work for us. Give us a benevolent dictator".] It's the classic throwing out the baby with the bathwater problem, IMO. No sistem of governance will thrive and benefit its people when corruption and incompetence are allowed to go unchecked. The pendulum effect is often a knee-jerk reaction which results in overkill and collateral damage.
X
 

Peterkro

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Aug 17, 2004
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Communard de Londres,Tiocfaidh ár lá
xsedrinam said:
I don't know how any informed person/position could argue that Venezuela has benefitted from a regime which confiscated and shut down the movement of oil. Venezuela, a leading oil producer, has had to import its oil, of all things :eek: Protestors against the regime were arrested on charges of "traición" for displaying the Venezuelan flag in their rallies. Bringing a country to across the board poverty in the name of socialistic equality is so totally naive, 60's paradigm, mad at the world capola, I don't see how anyone could buy in to that, figuratively ;)
X
A source for Venezuela importing(other than specialised types it doesn't produce)would be good.Aside from a bunch of tossers with delusions of ripping off the people and becoming US uber capitalists the country seems to be progressing very well thank you very much.It may be controversial to some but in my opinion Cuba also is doing well,in spite of the worlds most powerful country doing all it could for 45 years to stop it,again the ex-cuban community in Florida contains its fair share of right wing nutters all the better for being out of Cuba.
 

xsedrinam

macrumors 601
Oct 21, 2004
4,348
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Peterkro said:
A source for Venezuela importing(other than specialised types it doesn't produce)would be good.Aside from a bunch of tossers with delusions of ripping off the people and becoming US uber capitalists the country seems to be progressing very well thank you very much.It may be controversial to some but in my opinion Cuba also is doing well,in spite of the worlds most powerful country doing all it could for 45 years to stop it,again the ex-cuban community in Florida contains its fair share of right wing nutters all the better for being out of Cuba.
Importing to Western Venezuela from the Guajiri is common knowledge since the agreement between Colombia and Venezuela in 2003. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/venez.html

The observation that the countries in question (Cuba and Venezuela) seem to be "progressing very well" is indeed controversial and, I for one do not agree with this assumption.
X
 

rainman::|:|

macrumors 603
Feb 2, 2002
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iowa
Why not have Disney build another resort, offer Cubans an apartment and a plane ticket to come staff it, then Castro's just got his own private island and little to do. Or-- wait, no that'd be a bad idea. Withdrawn.
 

absolut_mac

macrumors 6502a
Oct 30, 2003
935
0
Dallas, Texas
Xtremehkr said:
...especially by a country that has upheld so many Dictators it has helped to install and support.
Hey, we like dictators who toe the line, and oust - or at least try to - those who don't.

All kidding aside, Castro replaced a corrupt regime with his corrupt regime, and murdered hundreds, if not thousands of dissident Cubans in order to stay in power.

As a scuba diver, I really don't care one way or the other who is in power there, as long as they keep those reefs in pristine condition and give the people a voice in how their country is run. By that I mean that it doesn't have to satisfy an American definiton of democracy.

We now do business with Vietnam - a good thing IMHO - so hopefully things will work out as well for the Cubans once Castro and his brother are gone.
 

takao

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Dec 25, 2003
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Dornbirn (Austria)
i wonder when it will be allowed under the EULAs etc. to bring microsoft word to cuba.. i mean could you imagine what they could do with a word proccesor </sarcasm> (it's no joke : at the moment it's forbidden to take that program to cuba.. just like countless others)
 

Peterkro

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Aug 17, 2004
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Communard de Londres,Tiocfaidh ár lá
xsedrinam said:
Importing to Western Venezuela from the Guajiri is common knowledge since the agreement between Colombia and Venezuela in 2003. http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/venez.html

The observation that the countries in question (Cuba and Venezuela) seem to be "progressing very well" is indeed controversial and, I for one do not agree with this assumption.
X
Are you seriously suggesting that a US goverment site(the goverment who funded the strike,helped organise the attempted coup and had military "advisors" present at Chavez's kidnapping) is a reputable source in this matter you are lving in La La land.This is not a personal attack on you but it beggars belief the propaganda being pumped out by the state dept.
That article refers to natural gas being supplied by a trading partner as a economic measure whilst changes are made in the oil infrastruture.Why not work with partners to ensure the best possible supply for all in the area.The other way is to invade the country with overwhelming military force(a move favoured by at least one other country in the worldwide oil racket).