For those of you actually paying income taxes... Happy Tax Freedom Day!

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by fivepoint, Apr 9, 2010.

  1. fivepoint macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    IOWA
    #1
    [​IMG]

    Congratulations, since Jan 1st, 2010, those of us in the top 50% of wage earners have been working for the federal government, but can now start working for ourselves! Every dollar, every cent, you've earned for the past ~100 days is actually the amount you pay to the government each year in taxes!

    How do you know this number is 'high' and not just a normal level? How about the fact that Americans will pay more taxes in 2010 than they will spend on food, clothing and shelter combined. Or you could look at our historical tax burden and how it has grown over the years.

    Year TFD Percentage tax burden
    1900 January 22 5.90%
    1950 March 31 24.60%
    2000 May 1 33.00%
    2010 April 9 26.90%


    Maybe those numbers aren't scary to you... maybe you think it's ok since it has actually gone down in recent years... well, then you're sadly mistaken. This is because you're not adding in the total deficit of the United States... AKA tax burden that you own, but are not yet paying.

    [​IMG]

    The numbers are skewed because today, the American government doesn't think we actually need to pay for all of our benefits. Instead of paying them now, they burden us with future debt WITH INTEREST.

    [​IMG]

    With debt included, we are quickly reaching 50%, so HALF of the year, you will be essentially working for the government. HALF of what you make each and every day will be signed over to the government on your behalf.

    Now, some of you in some more of the fiscally conservative states have a little bit better tax burden, some of you maybe even stopped paying in March, but for those of you in liberal states (also seem to be the ones in the most financial distress (weird)) may be paying even a bit longer. Joining Connecticut in the latest celebrations are New Jersey (April 25), New York (April 23), Maryland (April 19) and Washington (April 15). Alaska and Louisiana are joined in early celebration by Mississippi (March 28), South Dakota (March 29) and West Virginia (March 30).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  2. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Location:
    Illinois
    #2
    Back in 1900, when Americans paid only 5.9 percent of their income into the tax coffers, Tax Freedom Day was January 22. From 1900 to 1917, tax rates rose steadily to about 6.7 percent, pushing it forward to January 25th.

    Then came World War I, when the tax burden doubled and by 1921 Tax Freedom Day jumped to February 22nd After the war taxes were reduced, but not to prewar levels.

    In the throes of the Depression, Franklin Roosevelt and his New Deal programs came with higher taxes and Tax Freedom Day moved into March for awhile. Then it receded back into February.

    Once World War II hit, Tax Freedom Day was propelled forever forward past March. By 1960 it was April 11th.

    John Kennedy's tax cuts curtailed rising tax rates and Tax Freedom Day rolled back a bit, to April 9th in 1964. Then came the Vietnam War coupled with Lyndon Johnson's Great Society both of which forced taxes up, and Tax Freedom Day shot forward to April 24th.

    In 1984 Ronald Reagan's tax cuts once again pushed Tax Freedom Day back on the calendar, to April 17th. Then economic growth and a hike in payroll taxes sent it the other way, to April 22nd in 1989.

    In the mid 1990s, Bill Clinton's higher tax brackets increased our tax burden significantly, forcing Tax Freedom Day to a new late date of April 28th, and a string of "record-setting tax burdens," according to the Tax Foundation. In Clinton's last year, 2000, Tax Freedom Day fell on May 3rd, the latest date ever.

    With the country's opposition to tax growing, George W. Bush was elected and immediately cut taxes. That year, though most of the Bush tax cuts were not yet in effect, Tax Freedom Day receded a bit to April 30th. In 2001, it fell to April 19th, then to April 16th by 2003. After that, Tax Freedom Day drifted forward again, till it reached April 27th in 2007. Since then, a combination of stimulus cuts and a weaker economy have caused it to roll backwards.

    Now in 2009, April 13th is the day we can theoretically breathe a sigh of relief. It's the earliest Tax Freedom Day in 42 years, but with the federal budget deficit at 10 figures for the first time ever, any sense of relief is blurred by questions about our ability to rebound under the weight of such debt.

    http://www.accountingweb.com/item/107367

    (edit) Which is better considering we have a massive debt: having an earlier tax freedom day and allowing our debt to increase, or having a later tax freedom day and reducing the burden we are giving to our children and grandchildren?

    I don't have an answer, and I completely sympathize with both sides of that disagreement. Fiscal responsibility vs. fiscal responsibility.
     
  3. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    #3
    Waaahhhhh, I have to pay my fair share of taxes!

    Is that all conservatives can do? Bitch about paying taxes? If you don't like it, go live somewhere else....oh wait, that's right, perhaps with the exception of Somalia, we have one of the lowest tax rates in the world. Let me get out my violin :rolleyes:
     
  4. djellison macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena CA
    #4
    What public services would you scrap to reduce the tax burden on the working population, 5point.

    I hope to be moving to the US within the next month. I'm looking forward to paying less tax than I do right now.
     
  5. IntheNet macrumors regular

    IntheNet

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2009
    #5
    Thanks for posting! Very interesting... It is, however, a sad commentary on America when half of America pay taxes so the other half can enjoy welfare and entitlements! I always enjoy surveys showing how many of those that don't pay taxes generally vote Democrat in elections!

    :D

    How Many American’s Pay Income Tax? Try Half!
    By Bryan McAffee
    http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=6002
    Our liberal friends would say that it’s not fair that the rich should enjoy so much more then the rest of us and not pay such a substantial portion of the tax burden. My response is; is it fair that one American has to pay so much more for the very same services? Your sense of fairness is much different then my sense of fairness. I thought our Constitution was founded under equal protection of the law and that no American should be treated differently then another. It’s really time to get rid of the byzantine tax system we have and adopt a fair tax or flat tax system. Margaret Thatcher once said “the problem with Socialism is eventually you run out of other people’s money to spend.” This is precisely what will happen if our tax system and tax philosophy are not updated in a meaningful way.

    I guess we now know who herein doesn't pay anything at all to the IRS...
     
  6. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    IOWA
    #6
    Good quoted text you posted. Important to bring debt into the conversation. I think you're making the false assumption though that the choice is between higher taxes and higher debt. This is the mistake so many liberals make.... it never even seems to cross their mind that LESS SPENDING might be the best solution. Less redistribution of wealth. Less FORCED charity.

    Tax less, spend less, economy up, tax revenues up.



    "Fair Share" Ahhh... thanks for sharing your lovely 'economic justice' theories. I think Marx and Stalin would have agreed. Kind of a warped world when you think inviduals making 20% of income should pay 40% of income tax. That must be the 'fair share' you're talking about.

    Always find it interesting when certain people feel that they "DESERVE" other people's earned money. Really makes me wonder where this particular piece of 'morality' came from.
     
  7. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Location:
    Illinois
    #7
    For the hundreth time, federal income taxes are only one tax. There are many other taxes that people pay, and as a percentage of income, the upper 50% and the lower 50% pay roughly the same amount (except the very, very top, who pay less, and the very, very bottom, who also pay less).

    Add to that sales taxes, sin taxes, etc...
    Remember too, that if you are wealthy, you are likely (not guaranteed) more able to control your tax burden from year to year. If I make $400,000 per year as a doctor with a salary, and have no other income or investments, I will pay income taxes on the full amount. On the other hand, if I have $400,000 income from investments and property/assets, I can control the timing of sales, the timing of losses, and other things to minimize the tax effects. e.g. I can sell a loser at the same time as a winner, and offset the gain with the loss. If I have losses next year, I might be able to carry them forward or backward.
     
  8. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    #8
    I pay my taxes to the IRS. I pay them each year and don't bitch about it because I like things such as having roads to drive on, police to keep me safe, paramedics and firefighters in case of an emergency, levees to keep the Missouri and Mississippi rivers from taking out this city, radar systems to warn me of any tornados or other severe weather in the area, plows to keep the snow and ice off the roads in the winter, building codes and inspections so a major earthquake doesn't turn us into the next Haiti and air traffic controllers to make sure the plane I'm flying in doesn't crash into another plane.

    So don't go around accusing me of being a criminal without any proof to back it up. You are full of **** if you're accusing me of not paying taxes.

    I never said I feel that I deserve other peoples' money. I make a good living and have never received a dime of government assistance
     
  9. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    IOWA
    #9
    Although we often talk about such things in jest, one does have to stop and think what the political ramifications are of nearly half of America paying no income taxes into the system, and only benefiting (in the short term) from the consequent redistribution of wealth, when one party is standing on principles to continue the growth of entitlement programs, expansion of the redistribution, growth of taxes on the 'rich', etc. (visual representation below)

    [​IMG]

    Why in the world wouldn't those folks vote Democratic? They're the money train! Everyone loves the money train! Nobody considers the long-term effects, the effects of having a HUGE segment of the population utterly dependent on government and on programs which take from one group to give to another. A HUGE segment of the population that never learns about personal responsibility or to take care of themselves.

    Ironic that the liberals who think they're helping, are actually hurting the less well-off more than they can possibly imagine. Liberalism often = Cruelty in the long run.
     
  10. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    IOWA
    #10
    The ultimate red herring of the Left. "Don't you like roads?" Don't you like police and fire fighters?" It's laughably ridiculous although effective argument for the less informed. Why not be honest about spending? Why not admit that at least 80% of our spending goes either to defense or entitlements (i.e. redistribution of wealth)? That Social Security is BANKRUPT, and that medicare and medicaid aren't far behind. It's like all of a sudden roads and firemen popped out of the earth after the New Deal!

    You say you never said that you deserve other people's money... but if you support the system as is, you certainly do. You may not receive the funds, but you do support the system! In your mind it's ok to take from one person to give to another... forcibly, not from charity. It's up to a few small people in government to decide who should be the winner of this equation and who should be the loser. Who takes and who gives.
     
  11. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    #11
    Same here. I pay plenty of taxes.


    Exactly. I don't think that having roads, police and fire departments and yes, eventually UHC where my taxes will help pay for others' health care (as well as mine) are bad things. Some people do, apparently.
     
  12. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    IOWA
    #12
    Life is much easier when you simply ignore all opposing viewpoints. ;)


    How often is it said in these forums that conservatives have no soul... that they don't care about poor people, and only care about helping large corporations and filling their own wallets? We get vilified at every corner. Problem is, as I pointed out, that conservatives actually care just as much about the poor as liberals do, they just know that free hand-outs aren't the way to help them. Creating economic growth is, as evidenced by the standard of living in America.

    Liberals, like conservatives have the best of intentions... they can help in the short term, but in the long term their policies simply keep people down, and stifle growth... the poor get poorer and more dependent on government.
     
  13. yg17 macrumors G5

    yg17

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2004
    Location:
    St. Louis, MO
    #13
    I've ignored people before, only to find myself reading their posts anyways out of curiosity.

    Have you ever seen Howard Stern's movie Private Parts? If not, watch it, I recommend it, it's a good movie. There's a scene where radio execs are discussing his ratings, in which it is revealed that the average Stern hater listens longer than the average Stern fan. The answer most commonly given by those people was "I want to see what he'll say next." That's how I am with those two, I want to see what they're saying, as f'ed up as it may be.
     
  14. IntheNet macrumors regular

    IntheNet

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2009
    #14
    Well said... If more progressives actually decided to pay taxation equally rather than their diminishing "share" this nation would achieve the equality MLK actually sought.
     
  15. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    IOWA
    #15
    How many of you out there can tell me that you'd be OK with paying 50% of your income to the government each year. For every check you get, you write a check for half as much to the government? Would that be cool with you?

    I'd say one of the biggest reasons there isn't more outrage with taxes is automatic tax withholding. The problem is, most people don't even think about the money coming out of their check each month, because they just see the bottom line number. If you get paid 3,000/mo. but you only see a check for 2,000/mo. that's ok... you get used to it. But if every month you got that 3,000 check, and then were forced to write out your own check to the government for 1,000 of it... you might be singing a different tune!

    Our taxes have been essentially hidden from a large segment of the population who doesn't pay attention.
     
  16. djellison macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena CA
    #16
    I'll ask you again. What public services would you scrap to meet this goal.
     
  17. AdamA9 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    #17
    Congrats guys, I have a little longer to wait, being over in the UK. Last year it was 14th May, I'm guessing it will be later than that this year... :rolleyes:
     
  18. AdamA9 macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    #18
    Earn enough in the UK and that's what you do :eek: Mine is bad enough at 40% UEL. This country over taxes, it sucks! :mad:
     
  19. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    IOWA
    #19
    I'll answer your question, but if we want to discuss it in greater detail, we should start another thread... this will take us off-topic fast. This thread is about taxation in general.

    First, what are we spending money on now?
    [​IMG]

    I'd start by bringing thousands of troops home from abroad and cutting national defense in half. I believe a more defensive posture would keep us just as safe, but would save TRILLIONS of dollars.

    I'd end all types of corporatism, and subsidies, to let the free market determine which technologies should succeed.

    Over time, I'd make steps to eliminate Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and drastically reinvent welfare to make getting participants off of the system ASAP the top priority. Such would require a return to a larger role from private secular and religious charity organizations, and neighbors to take a more active role in their local communities.

    I'd allow states to control the education system, per the constitution so that costs could be better maintained and variability would return to the system and competition would grow.

    I sure as heck wouldn't be having a government takeover of 1/6th of the economy and working towards nationalized healthcare! We're trillions in debt as it is, very soon... we won't even be able to handle the interest on our debt.

    In short, I'd return to a smaller, more constitutional Federal Government.

    There are many things you could do... many of us don't agree on what they should be, but only an idiot wouldn't agree that spending needs to be cut.
     
  20. renewed macrumors 68040

    renewed

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Location:
    Bemalte Blumen duften nicht.
    #20
    Obamacare. That's a cool $2 trillion saved right there. Saving each American about $7,000 a year. However, we all know many do not pay taxes, therefore, it will save us who do significantly more (averaged out of course).
     
  21. fivepoint thread starter macrumors 65816

    fivepoint

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Location:
    IOWA
    #21
    Most people don't even understand the depth of the problem... so how can they decide to reduce spending?

    It's all here, folks!
    http://usdebtclock.org/
     
  22. mcrain macrumors 68000

    mcrain

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2002
    Location:
    Illinois
    #22
    That my friend is the mistake so many conservatives make. If it were that simple, I would agree with you, however, the Laffer curve is a curve, and you are assuming we are on the right. With the current debt and spending levels, as well as the current distribution of wealth, there is a pretty good chance that the opposite is true. That if you taxes more, and spent less, the economy would go up, and tax revenues will go up. Unfortunately, taxes (revenue) hasn't gone up, so spending has gone up (TARP/stimulus) to push up the economy, which, by the way, will increase tax revenues.

    By the way, Democrats have shown they do a better job of controlling spending and reducing debt. The tax issue comes up now because of the massive increases in debt, thanks to, guess who!

    You do realize that during Reagan/Bush/Bush II, the rich got richer, right? Wealth was redistributed upwards, were you complaining abuot their "fair share" and 'economic justice' theories? In fact, what you are saying is that the wealthy "DESERVE" the money that was shifted to them from the poor.

    Speaking of ignoring facts... They don't pay Federal Income Taxes, but they pay many other taxes, including the taxes that pay for those entitlement programs. Is there some reason you continually FAIL to acknowledge that the tax system is more than just Federal Income taxes? Is it willful ignorance?

    Is there really a "huge" segment of the population that is utterly dependent on public aid, and who are not trying to take care of themselves? Who do you think those people are? Would you please describe what you imagine that person looks like, what they do, where they live? Curious.

    Assume that there are freeloaders out there, because I'm sure there are. Are you saying that the people who need help should be shut out because of a few bad apples? Nice.

    Government is responsible for roads, fire fighters, etc... why is that a red herring?
    You realize that BOTH of those are redistribution of wealth? One goes up, one goes down.
    So, you and others opposed President Obama's efforts to implement things that might help? It's not like Reagan/Bush/Bush II did anything.
    Or, they have been there and those on the left want to keep them there so we don't complain about paying for them.

    And if you support the system as you want it to be, so do you, except you think the wealthy deserve the money from the poor and middle classes.
    You seem to think it's ok when it's forcibly taking tax dollars and spending them on defense or reducing taxes/increasing debt so that the wealthy get more and more and more.
    You have made this wealth redistribution argument over and over, and I have attempted to show you that that same argument cuts both ways. I have not heard a single Democrat or liberal argue for wealth redistribution, that always seems to be the argument coming from the right. The right loves to try to characterize the priorities of the left as being wealth redistribution.

    Why not be intellectually honest and just say you disagree with the priorities, and you prefer tax cuts and spending on the things you like? Is it because arguing for tax cuts for the top 50% and spending on things that benefit defense contractors is a hard sell to the American public? (edit) Sorry Fivepoint, I used "you" when I didn't mean you specifically there, I meant the GOP/Right and people who are often heard to argue along similar lines.
     
  23. djellison macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena CA
    #23
    This - I agree with. Not starting illegal wars is a great way of saving money.

    What's best for a profit margin isn't necessarily what's best for a country, its people, the world or its environment. So no - I don't agree here.


    You're kidding me right. You're expecting charitability to cover all that. LMFAO - you're not living in a socialist country - you're living in your own little dream world!

    Here's another way you could save a fortune in the USA. You want to cut your military bill in half? I'm for that. Here's a way you could cut your healthcare bill in half:

    Adopt an entirely state funded healthcare system like the NHS here in the UK. That would bring the costs down from $4200/capita to <$2000/capita. Employers would have to pay half the insurance via a national insurance scheme - and pass the savings straight on to you as a pay rise.

    BINGO - WIN!

    THat's one awesome idea each - between us we just saved the US workforce about $800m/annum. Think they'll throw us a party of buy us a nice watch with an engraving on the back.
     
  24. leekohler macrumors G5

    leekohler

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Location:
    Chicago, Illinois
    #24
    I have seen Private Parts. I loved it. :) But I don't need to see what these two are going to say next anymore. They suck the intelligence out of any good discussion and pollute it with talking points. It was fun for a while, now it's just boring.
     
  25. djellison macrumors 68020

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Location:
    Pasadena CA
    #25
    Don't warp the facts. If you're in the UK you will pay 40% income tax on your salary from £37k - £150k.

    If you were earning £100k - your take home after income tax and NI contributions would be £65,310. Thus an total tax on your salary of 35%

    If you were earning a million quid - you'd still be taking home more than half of it.

    People look at the top line tax figure of 40% or 50% and go "ARHGHGH - 50% of my salary goes to tax.

    No it doesn't . Tax is levied incrementally, pound by pound, such that if you were earning £37,401/annum ( £1 into the 40% bracket ) - your total income tax and NI contributions would take your take home to £27,730 - or an overall tax rate of 26%

    Taking the top line figure and shouting it from the roof tops is wilful ignorance and deliberately misleading.

    We could scrap the NHS if you like - give you some of that back and then you could pay the £8k+ a year a typical health insurance policy in the USA would cost you or your employer. You up for that?

    A national health service is the middle ground. It's not socialism or capitalism. It's not communism or anarchism or facism or progressivism.

    Things like the NHS that puts patients before profit margin: they're common bloody sense.
     

Share This Page