For those that support UHC a question

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion, Social Issues' started by Eric-PTEK, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. Eric-PTEK macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    #1
    Two people walk into a bank.

    Person 1 is 55 years old, on social security, with a total income of 40K per year and assets of around $100,000.

    Person 2 is 55 years old, owns a business which employee's 15 people with an average salary of $45,000 per employee, gross sales of 2.2m per year, and a net profit of around $220,000 per year. The owner makes around 500K per year.

    Both ask the bank for a loan of $400,000 with nothing more than a signature promise to pay it back.

    The term is 20 years, with interest that would work out to a payment of around $2,000 per month.

    You have to give one person the loan and you are responsible to your management to ensure it gets paid back. Both have excellent credit and give you no other negative marks against them.

    Who gets the loan?
     
  2. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    #2
    Assuming UHC is an acronym for universal healthcare and that you're specifically requesting the views of those who support this policy, or are lucky enough to live in a country that has it, would you mind expanding a little on why this theoretical question is relevant to the topic?
     
  3. OutThere macrumors 603

    OutThere

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2002
    Location:
    NYC
    #3
    What does this have to do with universal healthcare? :confused:
     
  4. Eric-PTEK thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    #4
    That will be explained when someone answers :)

    And yes, UHC is Universal Health Care.

    I want to add a question to this too.

    As a stockholder of this bank which person would you prefer get choosen? For a bank to stay open it must be sustainable and picking the wrong person would create an unsustainable situation.
     
  5. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    #5

    Why not just make your point and lay out your argument on the merits of the topic instead of trying to draw people into an unrelated query? Do you know anything about universal healthcare or are we expected to discuss analogies that have no bearing on the subject?
     
  6. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #6
    You are confusing universal healthcare with a business that requires direct profits to be sustainable. Under universal care both would get treatment. In some places the person on $500 000 would be required to pay a levy and/or be required to take up private insurance (and have the option to have the care done privately if they so wished). The beauty of UHC from a financial point of view is the indirect benefits on the economy. Longer and healthier working lives (for instance the 15 employees in your hypothetical) and the most important a decrease in the prevalence of disease in society. Remember the individual in $500 000 can catch a disease off anyone (and pass it on to anyone) irrespective if their income.
     
  7. Eric-PTEK thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    #7
    It has plenty.

    People do not understand that the government, at its core, must operate as a business.
     
  8. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #8
    That is an easy thing not to understand as i don't believe it to be true.
     
  9. Eric-PTEK, Nov 7, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2010

    Eric-PTEK thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    #9
    Government is a business.

    Your comments do not take into consideration costs or how the market works...and your 'healthier worker' argument means that for that to be true you must also control the persons personal life. Food intake, exercise, safety of activities, etc.

    Why not?

    A government collects money, taxes. It spends money on various programs. Some programs are sustainable, some are not.

    In a business you get rid of unsustainable business, if you do not, you fail.

    In government you just continue on until it becomes unsustainable, then you continue on some more.

    There has to be an end point somewhere.
     
  10. renewed macrumors 68040

    renewed

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2009
    Location:
    Bemalte Blumen duften nicht.
    #10
    Well it would depend on each persons total expenses. Have to make sure they can make that payment. But I know what you want to hear so I'll bite so you can make your point.

    I'd give the loan to Person 2.
     
  11. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    #11

    Sorry, but it doesn't. Businesses don't issue their own currency.

    You're on a forum with many hundreds of people that live in countries with universal healthcare. We could tell you about the advantages and the results across the world, how it works, the benefits for tax-payers and the government... but I have a hunch that you're not attempting to argue in good faith.
     
  12. Eric-PTEK thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    #12
    I am attempting to argue in good faith. I live in the US, where I hope we never, ever have UHC.

    I do however live close to Canada, spend lots of time there, and hear plenty about their UHC.

    I am attempting to show why it will be a failed system, at some point in time, and where the care is not as universal as you may think it is.

    What what good is currency if you continue to devalue it?

    One of the products of the government is currency, that product must retain and promote value to be bought and sold, no different than any other product on the market.
     
  13. CaoCao macrumors 6502a

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    #13
    This is under the faulty assumption that the government needs to turn a profit (this is assuming you aren't a sick Malthusian bastard)
     
  14. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #14
    Glad we could massage this argument out of you. As an individual living in a country with UHC I can guarantee that none of this the case. Perhaps individuals from Canada or the UK could chime in as well.


    Edit: also a reminder that uhc countries outdo the us system by overall analysis of equality, life expectancy, infant death, and cost per capita. As well as having concurrent thriving private systems.
     
  15. Eric-PTEK, Nov 7, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 7, 2010

    Eric-PTEK thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    #15
    Sorry got my numbers mixed up.

    So why not give it to person #1?

    No it does not need to turn a profit, only break even. It can even operate at a negative for a period of time.

    Part of my argument is looking at scale.

    A business that makes 100K per year cannot go in the red for very long. A company that operates at 10M per year can go a while, at 1B per year a long while...at trillions a long long while.

    As the dollar goes up the game changes but eventually things must be paid.
     
  16. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #16
    You are flogging a hypothetical that nobody else is running with. UHC is there to provide a safety net for those who cannot afford healthcare and an adjunct for the rest of society.

    What does the individual on social security do if they can't afford chemotherapy or palliative care?
     
  17. Eric-PTEK thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    #17
    I am saying UHC, as in single payer.

    BTW, if the private system is thriving and profitable why does it need the public element?
     
  18. Blue Velvet Moderator emeritus

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    #18

    Tell us why universal healthcare will be a failed system. Bear in mind that in this thread alone, we have one person from Australia and another from the UK who has lived in a number of countries with universal healthcare, so some of us have some familiarity with the topic, not some theoretical analogies that equate governments to businesses.
     
  19. Eric-PTEK thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    #19
    If you don't mind me asking, how old are you and what UHC services have you used?

    We had dinner with some friends of ours from Canada. Had a bad knee, took 9 weeks to get an MRI. The private thing you speak of, the government of Ontario has not issued a permit for a privately run MRI in years. He could afford to go get a private one done but was forced into the system.

    That however is not the point of the argument.
     
  20. Rodimus Prime macrumors G4

    Rodimus Prime

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2006
    #20


    And now your Math fails.
    person 1 makes 100k a year (lone 4 times greater than their income)
    Person 2 makes 500k (loan is less than their income)

    So clearly I see nothing more than flame bait.
     
  21. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #21
    I suggest you do some research into UHC and how and why it operates before deciding that you don't want it and that it is unsustainable. This really is a basic question that anyone with a rudimentary understanding if the topic should have a grasp of.
     
  22. Eric-PTEK thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    #22
    And lets talk about the tax rates in those countries...and if UHC is so good then why is there a thriving medical business in India and other countries?

    Profitable companies come up to fill a need where there is a lacking. If there is a high profit business model for Health Vacations then it must be filling a need.

    I've only seen Health Vacations advertised in countries with UHC.
     
  23. bobber205 macrumors 68020

    bobber205

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2005
    Location:
    Oregon
    #23
    I support UHC, if for any reason, than this reason alone.

    No one should ever die from a disease or injury, let alone suffer from a disease, because of an inability to pay.

    This happens every day in our society and could even happen to the OP.

    In a UHC system, we could work to make this a impossibility.
     
  24. Eric-PTEK thread starter macrumors 6502

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2009
    #24
    OOPS...my fault...I had my own people mixed up.
     
  25. .Andy macrumors 68030

    .Andy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2004
    Location:
    The Mergui Archipelago
    #25
    This is irrelevant and has no impact on this thread or my contribution.

    Which is the case for many non-urgent procedures. Other imaging modalities are much quicker. If they needed it urgently they would have got it urgently. Where I live one can chose to pay out of their pocket or use a private system to have it immediately. The choice is there.

    I am not aware of the case in the UK or Canada. Perhaps you could provide a link to such claims?
     

Share This Page